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Thread: Nuxhall being FORCED out -- Channel 5 Reporting

  1. #91
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Nuxhall being FORCED out -- Channel 5 Reporting

    IMO Joe has a bigger fish to fry with the Reds, namely his Bobblehead and it's uncanny resemblence to Denny Neagle






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  3. #92
    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
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    Re: Nuxhall being FORCED out -- Channel 5 Reporting


  4. #93
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    Re: Nuxhall being FORCED out -- Channel 5 Reporting

    Knowing the Reds, that IS a Neagle bobblehead, and they just repainted it a bit
    Go Gators!

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    Re: Nuxhall being FORCED out -- Channel 5 Reporting

    I really haven't heard anything factual yet.

    I am getting a kick out of some of the ageist crap on here. I'm laughing, because some day you'll be wearing those shoes.

    This old lefthander says, "Remember your comments today, reflect on them tomorrow ........ and hope that you aren't surrounded by people like you."
    Last edited by TeamCasey; 08-05-2004 at 06:51 AM.
    "I've never understood the term "women and children" as if their lives are somewhat more important than men."

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    Re: Nuxhall being FORCED out -- Channel 5 Reporting

    I think the Reds/WLW are handling this just right. Sort of like a Nicorette patch, they are weaning us off of Joe. 80 games one year... 20 games the next... Sure we're used to Joe, and we feel like we'll miss Joe, but Joe is not good for us. He's not nearly as bad as Harry Caray was in his later years, but he's still not very sharp in a game situation. Stewart was one of my last choices among the "finalists" for the WLW job, but I still enjoy his work much more than Joe_version_2004. I saw Joe address a panel at SABR and he was outstanding and funny, when given the time and latitude to tell funny stories, etc. But he is no longer suited for play-by-play IMO.
    ". . . acquiring J. Blanton from Oakland for, apparently, Bailey/Cueto, Votto and a lesser prospect. I do it in a second . . . The Reds' equation this year is simple: Make Matt Belisle your #3 starter . . . trade for Blanton, win 85 or more, be in the mix all summer." - Paul Daugherty, Feb. 8, 2008

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    Re: Nuxhall being FORCED out -- Channel 5 Reporting

    For whats its worth, Dave "Giddy" Armbruster, the traffic guy who gets mentioned a lot in the booth during games was asked about this whole thing this morning by Jim Scott. He replied that he has known about it for a while and would only say that he "thinks its pretty sad that a guy with 1.5 BILLION dollars is jealous of a 76 year old man with bad knees."

  8. #97
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Nuxhall being FORCED out -- Channel 5 Reporting

    Originally posted by WVRedsFan:

    I've started this response three times without success. I'll try again, but it's not easy. Joe Nuxhall has been with the Reds in one capacity or another since he was 15 years old. When he left, they traded him away. He came back in 1962 or 1963, and went 14-3 one year. He stayed until he retired from playing and still stayed loyal to the Reds as a broadcaster. That's loyalty.

    My Dad told me once that there is no loyalty in the world anymore. (I know. The OLD MAN is going to lecture you young whippersnappers again...time to delete and move on) He always told me that if a man stayed with the same company for a long time and never considered jumping ship or leaving for better wages, conditions, and fringe benefits, he was golden and deserved the benefit of the doubt in all situations. But, that was the real America that doesn't exist anymore. In today's world, all that matters is that you do everything correctly and without liability (even if you have to lie). Never mind if you are one of the reasons millions of folks follow the place you work, it's always time for a change especially if you are younger and can talk a better game. It's money and perception that matter. Nothing else. Old fogies need not apply.

    And it's not like the great multitudes are calling for his dismissal, because they are not. It's radio. When I listen to the broadcasts, it's either because the game is not on TV or I'm in the car. Everything is not about total accuracy. It's the feel of the game--that's what radio has always been. I could care less where the player came from or how old he is. I want a friendly voice to let me know what's going on. It's baseball. And I want to be entertained. Marty does that. Joe does that. Anyone who wants to see what the other side is like, check out the Braves' radio team. Paint drying is more exciting. Yes, you get every statistic you never dreamed existed, but you get no emotion. You get professionalism. God save us from that. Driving along with the World Book Encyclopedia of baseball is a prescription for maybe falling asleep and plowing your car into a guardrail. Joe genuinely gets excited about the Reds. I just listened to Steve call an inning, and he might be a nice guy and all, but my mind wondered to a million things I should be doing other than listening to baseball. That never happens to me with Joe. I want to see what he and Marty think about situations. And I want to hear the hoarse voice say, "Get up, get out!" in the background. Or the quiet groan when something goes wrong. Quoting endless statistics is a prescription for putting me to sleep.

    But, I guess it's over and that's the way of 21st Century America. Get rid of them and bring the younger set in. Trouble is, younger folks don't listen to radio much anymore. They've got MP3's and ESPN.com and all that. My son follows the game on his computer.

    Yep, the Reds needed to let Joe go when he felt like it. It wasn't brain surgery, but it was close. It was PBP radio. And Joe didn't make the cut...after 60-odd years of being a Red. "It was a business decision."

    Sad.
    Great post, WV, and it is very sad. I used to be surprised at the critical comments of Reds legend, Joe Nuxhall, but in today's environment of exacting individuals, I've come to expect it. You either "get" what Joe Nuxhall is, and all that he brings to the Reds, or you don't. If he isn't your cup of tea, then so be it. I don't have any right to force my opinion on you.

    As many of you know, I had the pleasure of spending a week in the presence of Joe Nuxhall at the Reds fantasy camp a couple years back. He was the first person that I met, upon getting out of the cab from the airport. He approached me with a big smile, asked me my name and where I was from, told me we were going to have a great week, and put his arm around my shoulder and walked me into the hotel lobby. It was if he had known me all of my life, and it made me feel like I was a part of something bigger. His locker was just around the corner from mine, and every day, he would come by and ask me how things were going and spend some time just chatting. He didn't have to do that, and only he and Bernie Stowe did. I'll never forget their kindness. When my wife and son came on the weekend, we were at breakfast on Saturday morning and Joe came over to our table, slid in beside Matt, shook his hand and hugged him and treated him basically like a grandfather would treat a grandson. Joe was particularly happy when he found out that Matt was a lefthander. All I could do was smile, and Matt still remembers that to this day. That kind of thing is "above and beyond" and I'm very sure that I'm one of many who have witnessed that side of Joe Nuxhall.

    His experience in baseball, particularly Reds baseball, brings qualities to the broadcasts that no one else will ever be able to bring or replace. If he botches a few names, makes a few mistakes, or allows a little "dead-air," it doesn't bother me in the least. The things that he brings to the booth each day, far outweigh the few mistakes that he makes, in my opinion. He is a Cincinnati treasure, plain and simple. His phrases, stories and presence on the radio is a welcome relief from the forced, bland, canned, talking head, bore me to death with endless statistics approach that so many bring to the airwaves these days. I enjoy hearing someone like Joe that can bring a smile to my face when I've had a bad day. He's like an old friend, and where I come from, you treat old friends like family. Maybe that is part of the problem. Maybe the Reds aren't like a family anymore.

    I always figure what goes around comes around. With what measure we judge, we will be judged, and I'm sure that is just fine with most of you.

  9. #98
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    Re: Nuxhall being FORCED out -- Channel 5 Reporting

    "That's a short pop fly to Right-left-center field" and Jim-in-ez is under it for the catch, and that'll be the inning, the 2nd out of the inning."

    I grew up with Marty and Joe. Sitting in my room at night, getting 700 WLW to skip over the moutains in south eastern KY. Then when our local station WSGS in Hazard, started carrying the Reds Radio network, I got to hear them in 100,000 watts of FM power!

    Marty and Joe will always be the voice of the Reds to me, but I do like Steves style. Joe should go out on a high note. With his head held high in dignity for the years of service he's put into this organization, if they are forcing him out, then taking the moral high road, and moving on without them would be the class act to do... Not saying it would be easy, just classy.

  10. #99
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    Re: Nuxhall being FORCED out -- Channel 5 Reporting

    A friend of mine sent me this link. I thought it would be good background reading for this discussion. Joe isn't mentioned, but Marty is quoted often...

    (http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/spo...+baseball+fans

    Radio fades for baseball fans
    By Dan Caesar
    Of the Post-Dispatch
    07/09/2004

    Baseball on the radio. In its heyday it was a true art form, a craft unlike any other, in which storytelling - weaved with crisp, eloquent descriptions of the games - transformed those announcers into an extended family member for many in their audience.

    How many Cardinals' fans of a bygone era thought they knew Jack Buck or Harry Caray, even though they never met them? The same with Vin Scully in Los Angeles, Ernie Harwell in Detroit, Bob Prince in Pittsburgh and many others.

    But the relationship is fading in this high-tech age. New, glitzier media have grabbed fans' interest and wooed many - even broadcasters - away from the medium. Baseball's golden age on radio has evolved into about as much a relic as a yellowing newspaper found in a crevice of grandma's attic.

    "It's very clear that the dominant medium now is television," said Bob Costas, the lead baseball broadcaster for NBC before it lost the sport to Fox in 2001. "Radio's primary purpose is for when people are in cars or at the beach or on the move, that kind of thing. There may be some older people living in a town - where they have a particularly good or distinctive radio announcer - who might actually prefer to listen to the game on radio, even if it were available on television. But I think people are just so used to seeing the vast majority of their home team's games - let alone all the games they can see on cable - on television that that becomes the primary outlet."

    The transformation began in the 1970s, when cable TV conquered the country with its superstations, making the Chicago Cubs (on WGN) and Atlanta Braves (on WTBS) available nationwide on nearly a daily basis. Before then, most teams - especially in smaller markets - televised few games. National exposure was limited to NBC's Saturday "Game of the Week." It was a treat, the rare chance for fans to see teams other than the one they followed, clubs they often knew only from newspapers and magazines, or hearing them discussed on radio.

    "In the old days, the phone would start ringing at Channel 5 on Monday, 'Who's on the "Game of the Week" this Saturday?'" former KSDK (Channel 5) sports director Jay Randolph said. "That's all gone."

    In the early 1970s, Cardinals chairman August A. Busch Jr. permitted only about two dozen games to be shown. This year, all but three games are scheduled to be televised.

    "Radio's coverage has been diminished because there is so much on television," Randolph said. "If you're in the car, you're stuck with it, or if you're on a job where they don't allow you to have a television, you listen if you can. But I think it's lost a lot of its specialness."


    The hook of TV

    The loss of "specialness" has hit radio broadcasters, as television and its generally much better pay lures most young broadcasters. Joe Buck, 35, fits that mold. He formerly manned the Cardinals radio booth but now has abandoned that for the greener pastures of TV, in which he is the Fox network's lead play-by-play announcer for baseball and football.

    "When you think back over the last 50 years, there are only a couple guys still going on radio who are truly known as the voice of the team," Buck said. "It's a different era."

    Harry Caray played a major role in the transition. As immensely popular as he was throughout the Midwest, Mid-South and Southwest because of his work on Cardinals games, which were carried on the club's vast radio network, he didn't become a national icon until the final stages of his career. And that was because of TV, where he spent his latter years as the lead announcer for the Cubs on WGN. The legacy of Jack Buck, despite several forays into TV, is entrenched in radio.

    "If he was coming along now, he would end up as having been known as one of the great TV voices," Joe Buck said. "But fans don't sit around and listen to the radio anymore. There now is a fast-paced lifestyle. I don't think people are willing to sit to listen to the radio. ... The radio guy just doesn't sit there with people in their living rooms night after night anymore."

    Dan McLaughlin, 30, provides a case study in the radio vs. TV career path. In January 2002 he was in the unprecedented position of being offered a spot to broadcast Cardinals game on radio and television. His options were to work in one of the most prestigious radio booths in all of sports and broadcast all 162 Cards games, or do play-by-play of about 90 games on TV. He picked television.

    "I was such a young guy, I felt I needed to establish myself in television," he said. "There are so many games on TV, it becomes the place where people go."

    Wayne Hagin, who gained the Cards' radio job after Jack Buck's death, has been broadcasting baseball on the radio almost exclusively for more than a decade. He, too, was smitten by television early in his career - he even anchored ESPN's second "SportsCenter" telecast, in 1979. He also was involved in TV during his early baseball years before gaining the radio play-by-play job when the Colorado Rockies were born in 1993.

    "There was a time I wanted to do both, but it never presented itself," he said.

    But now he said he's satisfied as "a radio guy" and he doesn't like the cavalier attitude taken by some in the next generation.

    "Jack (Buck) and I had more conversations about that subject than anything else in the years I knew him," Hagin said. "It bothered him that young announcers loved the position they were in more than the craft. They didn't love baseball on radio, they were using it as a steppingstone."

    Marty Brennaman, the radio voice of the Cincinnati Reds for 31 years, concurred.

    "It never ceases to surprise me, the great appeal of TV," he said. "There never has been a game invented more for radio than this one, but guys want to gravitate toward TV. This generation, if somebody spends 30 years in a booth, it will be an aberration."

    Beyond money, there is more prestige associated with TV for the younger set.

    "Joe Buck now is the voice of the playoffs and World Series, because he does them on national TV," McLaughlin said.


    "Theater of the imagination"

    The ubiquity of television has led to an erosion of fundamentals in many young radio broadcasters, some top announcers say.

    "You can't stop the march of technology and the availability of all these games," Costas said. "When the primacy of television is so great and radio is relegated to secondary status, you lose that whole theater of the imagination (facet), you lose ... the storytelling ability of the announcer and the descriptive ability, and the ability to reflect by tone of voice, the drama of the situation. When those skills are less called upon, people don't develop those muscles.

    "Although there are still some very, very good radio announcers - I think it has subtly affected even the way radio is done. Except for the oldest of the oldest-timers, all of the radio announcers grew up watching baseball on television. Listen to how infrequently most radio announces position the fielders, tell you if the sun is behind a cloud or the shadows are creeping over the field, how infrequently they describe a pitcher's windup if it is distinctive or the quirkiness of a guy's stance, tell you what number a guy wears. ... Just the ability to tell an anecdote well is less in evidence than it used to be."

    Jon Miller, the radio voice of the World Series who also works on ESPN's Sunday telecasts and San Francisco Giants broadcasts, agrees.

    "I hear a lot of young guys doing minor league ball who are doing more television-type calls on the radio," he said. "But on radio, the accurate vivid description is everything - and on television it's irrelevant.

    "When I hear a game on the radio ... and a guy hits a line drive base hit into left-center field, I need to hear 'base hit.' When you see the ball go out there and you see it hit the ground, and at that point it's a base hit, I need to hear that on the radio, I need to hear that established. A lot of times you'll hear, 'line drive into left-center field, here comes one run in, here comes ...' and it's like, 'Wait a minute - I haven't even heard it's a base hit yet.'"


    Clutter corner

    The slow pace of baseball makes it a fertile ground, unlike any other sport, for storytelling. And there's nothing that interrupts the flow more than the so-called "drop-ins," the seemingly incessant commercial plugs that have infiltrated broadcasts. From sponsoring pitching changes to having ads tied to the listing of the umpires, no recent development has seemed to cause more grumbling. To those who consider broadcasting baseball on the radio an art, it's akin to plastering a Band-Aid adorned with an ad on Mona Lisa's forehead.

    "That's the bane of our existence," said Cincinnati's Brennaman, who added he has gone as far as not including the full allotment at times. "It's been an ongoing battle in my conversations with our station. I said, 'If you're going to add more, find somebody else to do this.'"

    Mike Shannon, who is in his 33rd year in the Cardinals' radio booth, also dislikes the trend.

    "It's all the bottom line," Shannon said. "I'd rather have it the other way because I think the fans would like it that way. What radio has going for it is that you can (make people think they can) smell the popcorn, taste the hot dogs and the Cracker Jack. I'm afraid that those things will be lost. You have to be careful you don't ruin that flavor."


    Local line

    Although there has been a general shift of power in baseball broadcasts at the local level from radio to television, such is not the case in St. Louis - at least not yet.

    "It has affected St. Louis, but it hasn't affected it to the extent of other places," said Costas, who lives in the market. "Out of 30 teams, in 20 of those cities it's probably the TV guy who is more identified with the team. In the cases where it's the radio guy, it would be because the person is of long standing ... or in those handful of locations where the radio guy is just so remarkably good that he overcomes whatever obstacle there is to making an impression - he's just so damn good that people can't help but notice."

    Key factors to the Cards' bucking the trend are a rich tradition on radio, plus the power of a radio network that has nearly 100 affiliates and the flagship station KMOX with its vast reach. There have been only three lead play-by-play announcers in more than half a century - Caray, Buck and Shannon.

    "This is a special place," Shannon said. "There is so much tradition."

    Shannon now is one of the longest-tenured broadcasters with one club.

    "He has something in common with the distinctive radio announcers who preceded him, which is he has a truly original personality," Costas said. "Not like some guys now who have an attitude, and it's an assembly-line attitude. It always cracks me up when I hear something like, 'Same game, Fox attitude.' How can anyone have 'attitude' if it's standard-issue attitude? There's an ESPN attitude, there's a Fox attitude, but there's only one Mike Shannon attitude, because there's only one Mike Shannon. Not only is he quirky and therefore endearing and amusing, but he is what - especially since Jack's death - what the Cardinals sound like.

    "And there's no overestimating the importance of that. Because (of the growth) of national television, and the Internet, and people reading USA Today, as those things break down the kind of provincial feelings and the regional feelings, one of the few things that reinforces it is rooting for your team and listening to your announcer. And your announcer can't be just anybody. He's got to be somebody you've got some years invested in - and that's what he's got going."

    McLaughlin says radio remains the focal point locally - but hints that won't last forever.

    "This town is different, because of Mike and Jack," he said. "They enhanced it. Maybe we're just catching up later than elsewhere."


    Looking ahead

    As times change, ESPN's Miller says he has adapted - and actually improved his radio broadcasts because of television.

    "There's a chance for a radio broadcast to be better than it's ever been because of television," he said. "When I do a game on radio, there's always a TV monitor where I have access to all the pitches from the center-field camera, to the replays, to give a more thorough view of what every pitch was. ... I describe every pitch off the center-field camera.

    "On television, I learned right away the fans have already seen it. And if you (as the announcer) are waiting for the umpire to call it, the whole country is saying, what are you blind? So I realized early on with the ESPN telecasts I needed to see what they were seeing so I didn't sound like the only guy in America who didn't know if the ball was caught or a home run. It's really helped make my radio broadcast better."

    But the overall direction of baseball on the radio seems to frustrate Costas, a wordsmith and craftsman.

    "I get tapes from some guy who is a real baseball fan," Costas said. "He's like I was when I was a kid, and he wants to be a baseball announcer and he's doing the Richmond Braves or the Chattanooga Lookouts and he's not trying to be some modern TV guy, he's trying to be Jack Buck, he's trying to be Ernie Harwell. And you wonder if there's as much of a spot for guys like that as there used to be."

    Cincinnati's Brennaman sums things up from the perspective of a baseball radio broadcaster whose career began in the era before TV saturation.

    "To me, the ultimate job in broadcasting still is to be the voice of a major league baseball team," he said. "And it's unfortunate so many don't feel that way anymore."

    Reporter Dan Caesar
    E-mail: dcaesar@post-dispatch.com
    Phone: 314-340-8175

    Pay attention to the open sky

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    Re: Nuxhall being FORCED out -- Channel 5 Reporting

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt700wlw
    I didn't know that, but I meant at the ballpark
    You mean something like....Joe Nuxhall Retirement Night on Sept. 18 against the Cubs?

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    Re: Nuxhall being FORCED out -- Channel 5 Reporting

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed
    Knowing the Reds, that IS a Neagle bobblehead, and they just repainted it a bit

    That is what I was thinking.
    The Big RED One

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    Re: Nuxhall being FORCED out -- Channel 5 Reporting

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRedsFan
    I've started this response three times without success. I'll try again, but it's not easy. Joe Nuxhall has been with the Reds in one capacity or another since he was 15 years old. When he left, they traded him away. He came back in 1962 or 1963, and went 14-3 one year. He stayed until he retired from playing and still stayed loyal to the Reds as a broadcaster. That's loyalty.

    My Dad told me once that there is no loyalty in the world anymore. (I know. The OLD MAN is going to lecture you young whippersnappers again...time to delete and move on) He always told me that if a man stayed with the same company for a long time and never considered jumping ship or leaving for better wages, conditions, and fringe benefits, he was golden and deserved the benefit of the doubt in all situations. But, that was the real America that doesn't exist anymore. In today's world, all that matters is that you do everything correctly and without liability (even if you have to lie). Never mind if you are one of the reasons millions of folks follow the place you work, it's always time for a change especially if you are younger and can talk a better game. It's money and perception that matter. Nothing else. Old fogies need not apply.

    And it's not like the great multitudes are calling for his dismissal, because they are not. It's radio. When I listen to the broadcasts, it's either because the game is not on TV or I'm in the car. Everything is not about total accuracy. It's the feel of the game--that's what radio has always been. I could care less where the player came from or how old he is. I want a friendly voice to let me know what's going on. It's baseball. And I want to be entertained. Marty does that. Joe does that. Anyone who wants to see what the other side is like, check out the Braves' radio team. Paint drying is more exciting. Yes, you get every statistic you never dreamed existed, but you get no emotion. You get professionalism. God save us from that. Driving along with the World Book Encyclopedia of baseball is a prescription for maybe falling asleep and plowing your car into a guardrail. Joe genuinely gets excited about the Reds. I just listened to Steve call an inning, and he might be a nice guy and all, but my mind wondered to a million things I should be doing other than listening to baseball. That never happens to me with Joe. I want to see what he and Marty think about situations. And I want to hear the hoarse voice say, "Get up, get out!" in the background. Or the quiet groan when something goes wrong. Quoting endless statistics is a prescription for putting me to sleep.

    But, I guess it's over and that's the way of 21st Century America. Get rid of them and bring the younger set in. Trouble is, younger folks don't listen to radio much anymore. They've got MP3's and ESPN.com and all that. My son follows the game on his computer.

    Yep, the Reds needed to let Joe go when he felt like it. It wasn't brain surgery, but it was close. It was PBP radio. And Joe didn't make the cut...after 60-odd years of being a Red. "It was a business decision."

    Sad.
    I may be a semi-young whippersnapper (33), but I totally agree.

    Well said!

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    Re: Nuxhall being FORCED out -- Channel 5 Reporting

    This is ugly.

    Bob Whitsitt did it to Bill Schonely of the TrailBlazers. Total PR snafu.

    Guys like Nuxhall,...you let them go out on their own terms.
    Rob Neyer: "Any writer who says he'd be a better manager than the worst manager is either 1) lying (i.e. 'using poetic license') or 2) patently delusional. Which isn't to say managers don't do stupid things that you or I wouldn't."

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    Re: Nuxhall being FORCED out -- Channel 5 Reporting

    This organization sucks!!! As long as they are owned by Lindner and the partners and being run by a CEO who is fricking clueless, they will never, ever be successful!!! Anyone who thinks different is smoking some good &^%$! Maybe I'll start rooting for the Cardinals, or not pay attention to baseball at all. I'm glad football is here.

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    Re: Nuxhall being FORCED out -- Channel 5 Reporting

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85
    Just makes a lot of mistake these days but he is a familiar voice. Stewart certainly isn't an improvement.

    Joe fits in nicely with an error prone team. Let him stay.
    A moment rarely went by when Bill Schonely didn't make some blunder, but I didn't care.

    "The Blazers lead the Nets by five 77-74", or something like that. He was the familiar voice as you say, but most importantly, he was the face and the voice of the franchise. The caravans he did over his 30+ years with the team were priceless p.r. I imagine Nuxhall's voice and image have a priceless P.R. for the REDS, too.
    Rob Neyer: "Any writer who says he'd be a better manager than the worst manager is either 1) lying (i.e. 'using poetic license') or 2) patently delusional. Which isn't to say managers don't do stupid things that you or I wouldn't."


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