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Thread: Pros and Cons of Keeping Miley

  1. #46
    Glenn Braggs
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    Re: Pros and Cons of Keeping Miley

    I believe that managers and coaches make a big difference in professional sports today.
    Lou Piniella
    2001: Mariners 116 Wins / 46 Losses (.716)
    2002: Mariners 93 Wins / 69 Losses (.574)
    2003: Devil Rays 63 Wins / 99 Losses (.389)

    What difference did Piniella make for the Devil Rays?

    Othe examples:
    - Joe Torre had a .471 winning percentage as manager before joining the Yankees.
    - Lou Piniella led the Reds to 5th place with nearly the identical team which won the World Series a year before.
    - Sparky Anderson finished last with the Tigers.
    - Tony LaRussa finished first as well as last with the A's during the 90's.

    Despite changing from Tom Robson to Chris Chambliss as hitting coach, the Reds are once again among the league leaders in strike outs.

    When do you blame a manager/coach for success or failure and when the team or individuals? My impression is that a lot of fans are comfortable to blame the manager when they have a personal agenda against him, as it is so hard to show evidence that a team would actually be better with someone else. This years edition of the Reds proves that they are not better than last season, despite a new skipper.


    Miley is fine if the Reds want to go the "good baseball man" route ...
    Which good baseball man would play Castro (and his .280 OBP) continously instead of Freel, Larson, Lopez or whoever and then even bat him second? With Miley the worst position player on the team has already 250 at bats!? How can you justify that with better options at hand?
    Last edited by Red Thunder; 09-01-2004 at 01:11 PM.

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  3. #47
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    Re: Pros and Cons of Keeping Miley

    Not saying Piniella wins every year or is a miracle worker. Managers and teams don't always mesh and even great managers have bad seasons. But Piniella has shown the ability to achieve big things with teams. I also believe that the Devil Rays will become a contender with Lou, if he stays around long enough.

    The problem, of course, is that difference-making managers earn money and usually ask the team to spend money on players.

  4. #48
    Member LINEDRIVER's Avatar
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    Re: Pros and Cons of Keeping Miley

    The sports page has turned into the comic page in one respect. At least a few days a week, I can just about expect to read (and chuckle) at Miley's, "We've got to get the bats going", or "We've got to get the bullpen going" quotes.

    I was wondering awhile back and I'm wondering again if Miley isnt a bit too soft on the boys. I'd like to know that he's jumping on somebody's case every now and then when they need it. I was hoping that Ronnie Oester would of been part of Miley's coaching staff because "O" would let a player know just what is expected and how quickly it better start happening. I think every team needs a "hatchet man" type coach on the staff. LOL

  5. #49
    Glenn Braggs
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    Re: Pros and Cons of Keeping Miley

    Patience of Reds fans ran out after two years with Bob Boone, who managed a total of six years overall. During his time with the Royals and Reds he posted a .455 winning percentage.

    Now look at one of the all-time great managers: Bobby Cox
    After his first 6 years of managing his winning percentage was .458

    Interesting, ain't it?

  6. #50
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: Pros and Cons of Keeping Miley

    We can all get off on Bob Boone since he was not successful with the Reds.
    But if we can give him credit for one thing it is "preaching patience" to our hitters, and going for those "quality at-bats" (perhaps too much so). It sank in to some of the young hitters.

    That patience was evident during the first few months of 2004, when the Reds led the NL in walks. Now our guys are out there swinging a borderline 2-0 pitches and what not. Is that Miley or Chambliss? Is it better now?

    I don't want Boone back, but not all Boone was bad...

    Managers do make a difference, but they cannot "work miracles" and must "fit" the team.

  7. #51
    Administrator Boss-Hog's Avatar
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    Re: Pros and Cons of Keeping Miley

    Red Thunder, I know you were a big Boone apologist, but let's look at it like this: someone obviously saw something in Bobby Cox during those first six years that made them believe he would win some games down the road, and obviously, he did. However, watching Bob Boone manage the Reds for 2 and a half years, I never, ever saw anything that made me believe he would be a guy that was capable of taking a team to the postseason; obviously, John Allen agreed with that. I'm not a huge fan of Miley, but I do find it refreshing to have a manager that doesn't act as if he invented the game; Boone gave you that impression and players' quotes from earlier this year back that up. Now here's the point: despite Cox and Boone's first six years being remarkably similar in terms of winning percentage, I'll put any amount of money on Bob Boone never sniffing another major league manager job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Thunder
    Patience of Reds fans ran out after two years with Bob Boone, who managed a total of six years overall. During his time with the Royals and Reds he posted a .455 winning percentage.

    Now look at one of the all-time great managers: Bobby Cox
    After his first 6 years of managing his winning percentage was .458

    Interesting, ain't it?

  8. #52
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    Re: Pros and Cons of Keeping Miley

    Quote Originally Posted by Boss-Hog
    Red Thunder, I know you were a big Boone apologist, but let's look at it like this: someone obviously saw something in Bobby Cox during those first six years that made them believe he would win some games down the road, and obviously, he did. However, watching Bob Boone manage the Reds for 2 and a half years, I never, ever saw anything that made me believe he would be a guy that was capable of taking a team to the postseason; obviously, John Allen agreed with that. I'm not a huge fan of Miley, but I do find it refreshing to have a manager that doesn't act as if he invented the game; Boone gave you that impression and players' quotes from earlier this year back that up. Now here's the point: despite Cox and Boone's first six years being remarkably similar in terms of winning percentage, I'll put any amount of money on Bob Boone never sniffing another major league manager job.
    Just to clarify on Bobby Cox, when Atlanta hired him he already had a long and distinguished career in Toronto. I think he may have been GM there for awhile. But I know he managed the Blue Jays for 4 seasons, had winning records in 3, and won a division title. Reds haven't hired anyone with his credentials in years.
    Last edited by Kc61; 09-01-2004 at 02:59 PM.

  9. #53
    Glenn Braggs
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    Re: Pros and Cons of Keeping Miley

    I agree with what you wrote Boss Hogg. It was not Bob Boone that I especially cared about .... I generally favour that managers and general managers are hired for an extended period of time. And this year proves in my opinion, that with the current situation of the Reds no manager would be able to finish above .500. Bobby Cox might milk out some more wins, but currently this would make no difference as the Reds are out of the race for other reasons than the manager & coaches.

    John Allen & Jim Bowden should have known what kind of manager they hired with Bob Boone. He managed the Reds like he managed the Royals. What did they expect as they already knew his style? There is probably a lot going on behind the scenes what the regular fan (better) never knows. Nothing against Miley, if he was really the man to go to I would have given him a 4-year contract. On the other hand, if the Reds were looking so hard for a top manager out there at a reasonable price, why didn't they even interview this man?

    Code:
    Larry Dierker
    
     Year    League   Team       G     W    L    WP   Finish
    +----+-----------+--------+-----+----+----+------+------+
     1997 NL Cent     Houston    162   84   78   .519      1
     1998 NL Cent     Houston    162  102   60   .630      1
     1999 NL Cent     Houston    162   97   65   .599      1
     2000 NL Cent     Houston    162   72   90   .444      4
     2001 NL Cent     Houston    162   93   69   .574      1
    +----+-----------+--------+-----+----+----+------+------+
          TOTAL                  810  448  362   .553

  10. #54
    Administrator Boss-Hog's Avatar
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    Re: Pros and Cons of Keeping Miley

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Thunder
    I agree with what you wrote Boss Hogg. It was not Bob Boone that I especially cared about .... I generally favour that managers and general managers are hired for an extended period of time. And this year proves in my opinion, that with the current situation of the Reds no manager would be able to finish above .500. Bobby Cox might milk out some more wins, but currently this would make no difference as the Reds are out of the race for other reasons than the manager & coaches.

    John Allen & Jim Bowden should have known what kind of manager they hired with Bob Boone. He managed the Reds like he managed the Royals. What did they expect as they already knew his style? There is probably a lot going on behind the scenes what the regular fan (better) never knows. Nothing against Miley, if he was really the man to go to I would have given him a 4-year contract. On the other hand, if the Reds were looking so hard for a top manager out there at a reasonable price, why didn't they even interview this man?

    Code:
    Larry Dierker
     
    Year League Team G W L WP Finish
    +----+-----------+--------+-----+----+----+------+------+
    1997 NL Cent Houston 162 84 78 .519 1
    1998 NL Cent Houston 162 102 60 .630 1
    1999 NL Cent Houston 162 97 65 .599 1
    2000 NL Cent Houston 162 72 90 .444 4
    2001 NL Cent Houston 162 93 69 .574 1
    +----+-----------+--------+-----+----+----+------+------+
    TOTAL 810 448 362 .553
    RT, I agree with you on Dierker. The problem is that he likely would have (and still would) command a salary more than the Reds are willing to pay for a manager. And that, of course, is how we ended up with Bob Boone (not that I wanted OESTER! anymore than Boone, if he was the alternative, though). I don't think Bowden had anything to do with Boone being hired - it was fairly well known that he preferred Lou, Willie Randolph, or several other choices before we 'settled' on Boone.

  11. #55
    Member LINEDRIVER's Avatar
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    Re: Pros and Cons of Keeping Miley

    Larry Dierker? He went thru a major health issue a few yrs ago. Could it be that Larry is 'not the same Larry' since the brain surgery??? I dont know. Im just wondering and asking. Maybe he's not interested in managing anymore and would rather play golf. His name doesnt seem to come up in big league circles, only here in RedsZone. Just seems to me that there is a reason why he hasnt managed anywhere since Houston, yet a few folks seem to think the Reds are really missing the boat for not hiring him.

  12. #56
    Glenn Braggs
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    Re: Pros and Cons of Keeping Miley

    From Dierker's book "This ain't brain surgery", published in 2003:
    (A very good read, in my opinion)

    "The thing that surprised me more than anything was that I wasn't contacted about several managing vacancies; our beat writer, Jesus Ortiz, called to tell me that my name had come up with regard to the Kansas City job, but the Royals never spoke with me. I had been careful not to say that I would never manage again. I didn't think I would, but I could envision a circumstance where I might throw my hat in the ring. After the season, there were many openings, and still no calls. Maybe all the general managers thought the four division championships were a fluke, and maybe they're right. I know it didn't happen just because of my leadership.

    I finally received a call about managing in eraly November 2002. At that time, the Brewers, Cubs and Mariners were still looking for a skipper. Alan Nero, who negotiated Art Howe's deal with the Mets wanted to know if I was interested in getting back in the dugout. I didn't have any interest in the Brewers job because I didn't think they stood a chance of winning. The Cubs appeared to have enough pitching to make a run at it. I studied the Mariners and I was convinced that they had a good chance to beat the ANgels and A's in 2003. I told Alan that I would consider those jobs, but I never heard back from him. I still don't know if I threw my hat into the rin too late or if they just weren't interested"

  13. #57
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Pros and Cons of Keeping Miley

    Quote Originally Posted by Boss-Hog
    GAC, I agree with the premise of your post, (that we generally shouldn't be overpaying for bullpen arms with inflating salaries) but if our alternative is to trade or non-tender every solid (or in Williamson's case, better than that) player once they are arbitration eligible, we're going to continue to end up with black holes like the 2004 bullpen.
    And I understand what you are saying Boss, but I don't think that that is gonna be this organization's approach just because they did this last year with guys like Sully, Williamson, Heredia, White, Mercker, and then Dempster. You have to look at what these guys were making last year, and what they would have gotten via arbitration or free agency if we had tried to retain them.

    But also...can a team viably replace them? YES they can...but they didn't. That was/is my beef.

    And I guess foresight is everything, but you also have to know when to cut ties. As Kenny Rogers once sang.... "You gotta know when to hold them, know when to fold them." :MandJ:

    What have those players we let go accomplished this year? Looking at that, we made the right decisions (with the exception maybe being Reitsma).

    As I stated above, my biggest problem with this FO in this area was that they tried to get by "on the cheap", or maybe felt these younger arms could fill the void created by the exit of these guys, in an area that we have in previous years been very strong in... our BP. It was a HUGE miscalculation on this FO's part IMO. When you haven't been able to build a reliable starting rotation in the last several years, then one area that had always been a plus for us was our BP.

    IMO... they got burned BIG TIME in '04, and they had better do something to fix it or we'll have the same problems in '05, even though I am alot more optimistic about the young arms in this rotation, as compared to what we have ran out there over these last several years. But these young guys right now have shown me that, due to inexperience, they are good for about 6 innings (a quality start). But if you're handing the ball/game over to an inept BP, then you're in trouble and wasting the effort. It's all for naught.

    My eyes will be on this FO (especially O'Brien) in the off-season, and at what they are going to do to fix this BP, more then any other area/holes on this team.

    We have some good solid core players on this team right now, and going into 2005. And we have the opportunity, and we can't waste it, to "complement" that core by simply strengthening this BP.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  14. #58
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Pros and Cons of Keeping Miley

    Sounds like Dierker's kind of picky about any managerial openings. If he didn't want to go to MIL, why would he want to come here?

    Getting back to Miley, I think he would be a lot better manager if he had a halfway decent bullpen and starters who could go 6-7 innings on a regular basis. I don't know if this is his fault or not but I don't see the Reds capitalizing on opportunities any more than they did last season. I didn't care for his reluctance to play WMP when Kearns was hurt. However Ryan Freel has been a pleasant surprise. He's one of those gritty players that Reds fans seem to love. But unlike some of hes predecessors Freel can actually produce when he's in there. He's no all star but I'm comfortable with him leading off. I think the players like him because they know they will get to play and Miley probably tells them a few days in advance when they will play. You may not like his playing Bragg, Castro and Valentin but it isn't like he's got a lot of choices out there.

    I'm more than willing to give Miley another year or two managing this team. I'd hate to see this job become a revolving door.
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  15. #59
    Administrator Boss-Hog's Avatar
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    Re: Pros and Cons of Keeping Miley

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    And I understand what you are saying Boss, but I don't think that that is gonna be this organization's approach just because they did this last year with guys like Sully, Williamson, Heredia, White, Mercker, and then Dempster. You have to look at what these guys were making last year, and what they would have gotten via arbitration or free agency if we had tried to retain them.

    But also...can a team viably replace them? YES they can...but they didn't. That was/is my beef.

    And I guess foresight is everything, but you also have to know when to cut ties. As Kenny Rogers once sang.... "You gotta know when to hold them, know when to fold them." :MandJ:

    What have those players we let go accomplished this year? Looking at that, we made the right decisions (with the exception maybe being Reitsma).

    As I stated above, my biggest problem with this FO in this area was that they tried to get by "on the cheap", or maybe felt these younger arms could fill the void created by the exit of these guys, in an area that we have in previous years been very strong in... our BP. It was a HUGE miscalculation on this FO's part IMO. When you haven't been able to build a reliable starting rotation in the last several years, then one area that had always been a plus for us was our BP.

    IMO... they got burned BIG TIME in '04, and they had better do something to fix it or we'll have the same problems in '05, even though I am alot more optimistic about the young arms in this rotation, as compared to what we have ran out there over these last several years. But these young guys right now have shown me that, due to inexperience, they are good for about 6 innings (a quality start). But if you're handing the ball/game over to an inept BP, then you're in trouble and wasting the effort. It's all for naught.

    My eyes will be on this FO (especially O'Brien) in the off-season, and at what they are going to do to fix this BP, more then any other area/holes on this team.

    We have some good solid core players on this team right now, and going into 2005. And we have the opportunity, and we can't waste it, to "complement" that core by simply strengthening this BP.
    I agree with just about everything you said there.

  16. #60
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    Re: Pros and Cons of Keeping Miley

    If I were O'Brien I would be concerned about Miley's late season performance. As the season winds down, the team is in disarray. Its play is getting worse by the game. The bullpen is a complete joke. Some of the veterans look disgusted or embarrassed.

    I know about the injuries and the deficiencies, but Miley seems to be losing the team, at least in terms of performance.


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