RON OESTER fired

[princeton]

I would love to know who these DEVELOPMENT people that Team Clark talks about are.......................are they the same development people who have not and cannot develop any starting pitchers for this team in the last 10 years?
The same people who seem to only be here collecting paychecks?

so why are they still here, Tony?

I'm not sweating the idea that people are complaining about a new regime; I've been through that, and that's what often happens. It doesn't have to happen, though

however, when the new employees hired by the new regime are also questioning the new regime's sanity, then you appear to have 10 times the mess.

I guess the real question is whether DanO hired Oester directly, or if he was a Lindner add in the way that Miley seemed to be. Maybe DanO had no say over Oester's hiring last year. Certainly that'd better explain philosophical differences and lack of communication

[lollipopcurve]

I think it's unfair to say O'B displayed inconsistency by going from 8-man rotations in A ball to 5-man rotations "in midstream." If you'll recall, this change was made late in the year, and the explanation was that some pitchers were getting worn down from going every 4th day.

The idea here, apparently, was to help pitchers avoid injury. Which was also a significant objective of the 75-pitch limit/8-man rotations instituted for most of the season. To my way of thinking, that's consistency, combined with the ability to be flexible. I have absolutely no problem with that.

And, it worked -- very few arm injuries in the minors this year.

Of course, if Ronnie O didn't like it -- even without knowing why he didn't like it -- there must be something wrong with it.

[Team Clark]

Tony I'd love to tell you. I'll make it all encomapssing.... I have spoken with no one in Player Development who DOES agree with Dan O's flimsy philosophy or wavering firection. And when I say no one that only leaves out six people in the Player Development department who I have not spoke with in the last year a few old and the rest all new hires. Read into it what you will.

[princeton]

I think it's unfair to say O'B displayed inconsistency by going from 8-man rotations in A ball to 5-man rotations "in midstream." If you'll recall, this change was made late in the year

inconsistency in late-stream, then

I think that he saw Grady abandon it in midyear, and decided that it was OK. Not exactly the "Scientific Method."

if it's a good thing and helped with injuries, then stick with it. Shut down anyone that's tired.

Heck, be really innovative and bring it to AA and AAA and then to the majors in the form of bona fide four man rotations. That's a change that I'd like to see, because it directly addresses the small market team's problem with payrolling a pitching rotation. But until Grady Fuson does it, I think that DanO's going to stay away from it.

[Phhhl]

Seeing how stiff Dan O and his staff are they may have perceived Ron O as a "renegade". I can tell you this...there is not a lot of confidence in Dan O within the organization. I supported his hiring but I can say that my support has dwindled. Dan is a "Yes" man and so is Dean Taylor. The impression that I get along with many others within the organization is that Dan is "feeling" his way through this job. Which IMO is somewhat to be expected but not to the large degree that is evident. I'm not talking about Big League payroll and trades I am talking about the ability to effectively oversee what 99% of the fans do not get to hear or see. Player Development, Scouting at both the ML and amateur levels, Minor League coach development, Instruction, and League wide relationship building.

I really though that Dan O could be a Bob Quinn but I was wrong. Dan is proficient as an INDIVIDUAL in the scouting arena. No question. He's adeqaute at best in the Player Development arena. He seriously lacks that abilities to coordinate putting the right people in place to help him effectively manage a Major League organization. Quite honeslty he has very little support from the people I talk with on a regular basis. That includes Players, Player Development staff, Scouts and Coaches. Real shame.

This is exactly what I saw the day he took the podium and accepted the job as GM. If you tossed Carl Lindner, John Allen and Dick Wagner into a blender and poured it, it could come out heaping tall glass of Dan O'Brien. The guy has just enough baseball knowledge to be dangerous, and he would be more than happy spending the next twenty years tinkering with unoriginal development mandates, second tier prospects, high school draftees and fringe major leaguers while running this franchise into the ground. I know Oester can be a hothead, but I tend to believe what he says... and for that matter, what TeamClark says. DanO is a loser, and I'm afraid he is going to be here for a miserably long time.

[crector]

Reds' minor leagues a mess


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oester firing, fallout reveal disturbing truth



It's a classic case of He Said-He Said. Unless you're one of the two men directly involved, it's not important whom you believe. Ron Oester said the Reds treated him shabbily, again. Tim Naehring said it was a difference in philosophies that led the club to fire Oester.

"It's sad to see this organization in the state it's in," said Oester, the Reds' former minor-league field coordinator.

"I feel very confident we've tried to re-establish what the Cincinnati Reds are all about," said Naehring, the Reds' director of player development and Oester's immediate supervisor.

Oester said Naehring was rarely available. "As the year went on, he wouldn't answer his cell phone," Oester said. Naehring said he returns calls promptly, an assertion defended by at least one club official and John Fay, the Enquirer's beat reporter. Maybe Naehring has Caller ID.

Oester said Naehring "is in over his head." Naehring said he wouldn't comment on that.

And so on. What matters is not that two Cincinnati kids - Oester went to Withrow, Naehring to La Salle - had a rude parting of the ways. What matters is what it suggests about the Reds' farm system. With tightwad ownership, if you don't hit home runs in the minors, you will strike out in the majors. Every time.

Cincinnati's only chance to be anything greater than a footwipe rests in its ability to scout, draft, sign and develop players. The people they have running the operation better be smart and innovative, not divided and squabbling.

You could say Ron Oester is a hothead.

You could say he's willful, stubborn and confident in his beliefs. Oester knows what he knows. But you could see where he wouldn't always be the easiest guy to get along with.

Here's something else about Oester: He's old-school tough. He expects things to be done a certain way. He remembers when doing things the Reds Way was a given. And he knows the game.

"He's a good baseball person," Naehring said.

Here's what the good baseball person had to say about the Reds' organizational philosophy, when it comes to developing players: "I didn't see anything like that."

Here's what he said when asked if he thought loyalty counted for more than competence among non-playing members of the organization: "No doubt. I think the guy that's more qualified is going to have his own opinions on how to change things (for) the better. I don't know that they want to hear that."

Naehring said only that the Reds are committed to being the kind of organization that will make the fans and city proud. "(Oester's) job description was laid out (to Oester) and not fulfilled," Naehring said. "We needed to move on."

Oester said he was stunned to arrive at spring training to see minor-leaguers walking on and off the field. "This is the Cincinnati Reds," Oester said Thursday, more amazed than angered, "and we have players walking on and off the field."

Oester said he saw a minor-league hitting instructor sleeping in the dugout during a game in Sarasota. He said he saw a kid hit a home run, trot to first base "then peel off and head back to the dugout."

Oester said the organization mandated that minor-league hitters not swing at a pitch until they were thrown a strike. When he questioned that wisdom, he said Reds general manager Dan O'Brien told him to allow two players per team to swing away, and if that experiment worked, he could add two more. Say what?

Oester said he was rarely consulted on player moves. "I was never invited to any meetings with Dan and Tim. I'm supposed to be running the minor leagues on the field. I didn't hear anything except on voice mail."

Oester said he was involved in deciding September call-ups. He advocated recalling catcher Corky Miller. "I like his makeup," Oester explained. Oester recalled O'Brien said Miller "is always dirty. It seems to me Corky Miller should be playing on a Sunday beer league team."

"No disrespect, Dan," Oester came back. "But I'd rather have somebody play good than look good."

O'Brien didn't return a phone message Thursday.

The Reds said Oester returned from a seven-day trip to the Dominican Republic in August, after just one day. Oester said that was true. He left after a night because he was unable to get clean towels in his hotel room. The Reds also said on several occasions in March, Oester skipped afternoon workouts in Sarasota.

The team claimed Oester

missed at least nine of the 91 days he was expected to be on the road. Oester said he explained his absences. Naehring said only this: "Ron made the decision for the organization" to fire him.

On it goes. He Said-He Said leaves one lasting impression: The Reds don't have their act together in the minor leagues. And that's death to a small-payroll team.

Just some more of Paul Daugherty's negativity. Even if the Reds won the World Series, he'd find something to trash the team about.

[traderumor]

The guy has just enough baseball knowledge to be dangerous, and he would be more than happy spending the next twenty years tinkering with unoriginal development mandates, second tier prospects, high school draftees and fringe major leaguers while running this franchise into the ground.

Sounds more like our previous GMs MO than the current one, and he came just a bit shy of 20 years.

[lollipopcurve]

Princeton -- the point is that, late in the season, they didn't feel they had enough resilient arms to stay with the 8-man rotations -- if they had "shut down everyone who's tired," that is, everyone who was unable to continue in an 8-man rotation on a 75-pitch limit -- then they wouldn't have had enough pitchers to form complete staffs

the solution was to pull some guys from "starting" duty (i.e., 75-pitch duty) and put them in the bullpen

the more resilient arms stayed on the 75-pitch limit

then there a case like Pauly's, who was shut down for a couple starts after complaining about his elbow and then brought back onto the 75-pitch regimen

you seem to be arguing in black-and-white terms -- either do it or don't -- but reality is that different pitchers react differently and the system showed it had enough flexibility to accommodate giving different #s of pitchers -- from 8 to 5 -- "starting" duty on 75-pitch limits for the whole year

in effect, the system did not change, it shrank

your theory that O'B is simply mimicking Grady Fuson may or may not be true -- but it has no basis in fact at this point, so far as I can tell

[Aronchis]

This is exactly what I saw the day he took the podium and accepted the job as GM. If you tossed Carl Lindner, John Allen and Dick Wagner into a blender and poured it, it could come out heaping tall glass of Dan O'Brien. The guy has just enough baseball knowledge to be dangerous, and he would be more than happy spending the next twenty years tinkering with unoriginal development mandates, second tier prospects, high school draftees and fringe major leaguers while running this franchise into the ground. I know Oester can be a hothead, but I tend to believe what he says... and for that matter, what TeamClark says. DanO is a loser, and I'm afraid he is going to be here for a miserably long time.

DanO's a loser? You make that claim after a year on the job with a downtrodden club? Good for you have foresight. Maybe a little more non-inflammatory analysis would be due than self-rightous bantering which ruins any points your trying to make.

[princeton]

you seem to be arguing in black-and-white terms -- either do it or don't

exactly. If you believe in a system, then apply it. When not applied systematically, there's not a system

[Tony Cloninger]

I do not know why they are stll here Princeton.

If Team Clark, and he has most inside info, is correct, then these people either need to get more positive with DO approach or leave.

I would like to give DO at least another year though before i annoint him a "loser".

I am not a patient person either but rebuilding this FA takes more than 1 year to do. No one seems to want to do this....or beacuse DO does not do what they would do then he must not know anything.

I am all for the 4 man rotation though. With 2 long swingman in the bullpen i blv it can work.

[Phhhl]

DanO's a loser? You make that claim after a year on the job with a downtrodden club? Good for you have foresight. Maybe a little more non-inflammatory analysis would be due than self-rightous bantering which ruins any points your trying to make.

I don't need to support it. Ron Oester, Sean Casey and Team Clark have provided enough support already. DanO is impompetent if the long term plan is to win a championship. If you're happy with the Hall of Fame and the pretty new ballpark, I guess he's your man.

[Aronchis]

I don't need to support it. Ron Oester, Sean Casey and Team Clark have provided enough support already. DanO is impompetent if the long term plan is to win a championship. If you're happy with the Hall of Fame and the pretty new ballpark, I guess he's your man.

They do? Oester is his own man, which gets himself into trouble, always will move him aside.

Sean Casey? Doesn't want to rebuild anymore since he has only a little more time in Cincy. Though he may be surprised how things turn around, I get Sean's point, I get O'briens(build from the Farm System).

Team Clark: Hearsay, maybe overstated, maybe just how DanO works. It is how it churns out on the field what counts, we don't know how DanO will end up yet though you try to be nihilistic about it.

Santo, your making a flat statement, without good evidence. If DanO takes the Reds to the playoffs in 2006, you will be looking awfully poor. It is your opinion, but I think he deserves his time to turn things around. Whether we like it or not, the Reds are pretty much right on track where I expected things to be at this time. We weren't screwed up over night, it won't turn around overnight, but it may come damn close.

[REDREAD]

But keep laughing at an attempt to maximize ability, that's just as funny to me.

Yes, it makes a whole lot of sense to have someone like DanO (who has probably never even seen or heard of some of these guys) come in and immediately order them not to swing until they get a strike. Kind of contradicts the idea that Oester was supposed to develop an individual plan for each farm hand.

When Dunn was in the minors, should he have been forced to take strike 1?
He already had plate discipline.

I'm sorry, but blanket rules that apply to everyone with no exceptions are almost always a bad idea, especially when they come from the top and handcuff the managers in the trenches trying to get work done.

[REDREAD]

Straighter ship in the clubhouse, younger pitchers on the mound, Dunn, Freel and Pena all having good years, more wins, Lopez..... yeah I long for last year too.

:MandJ: Really reaching there.

I see just as much unhappiness in the clubhouse as last year. Everyone was down. Casey wants to leave. Everyone still sees the Reds as a temporary pitstop until they go to a team that is willing to pay them.

Dunn had a good year last year, as a stat guy, I think you'll agree

Pena.. you mean the guy DanO was going to cut and was behind Romano, Clark, and other scrubs, who gave credit to Chambliss and Lark?

I will give him credit for Chambliss and Freel.

But he spent just about all his payflex on Cory Liddle. That was dumb.

He did nothing special with Lopez. Any GM would've started him at AAA (since he had an option) and brought him up when Lark was hurt.

Younger pitchers on the mound.. How is that good? Other than Claussen and Wagner, there's probably not a keeper in the bunch.