Turn Off Ads?
Page 3 of 9 FirstFirst 1234567 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 135

Thread: OPS vs. OBP vs. BAS

  1. #31
    Member ochre's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    4,266

    Re: OPS vs. OBP vs. BAS

    Quote Originally Posted by DunnHater
    And that I'll go along with. Of course, remember last year was his contract year and his best year in the majors. You run Slugging on Adam for his 4 years in majors and his rank falls considerably I'm sure.

    But again, I'll go along with OBP for players at the top of order and Slugging for rbi types.

    And agree, that batting average is more independent of role in offense for a given player. OBP best for guys who need to get on base. And slugging (factoring both batting average and power) is pretty darn good for appraising a player's rbi ability................
    age?

    experience?

    "coaches" trying to change his approach because they apparently think similarly to you?
    4009



  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #32
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Posts
    12,324

    Re: OPS vs. OBP vs. BAS

    Dunn's SLG-

    2001 - .578
    2002 - .454
    2003 - .465
    2004 - .569
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  4. #33
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Melbourne, FL
    Posts
    4,855

    Re: OPS vs. OBP vs. BAS

    Quote Originally Posted by DunnHater
    The point of this argument is to keep OBP and Slugging/Batting average separate. Evaluate top of the order type players based on OBP. Evaluate middle of the order type guys based on actual HITTING (batting and slugging). Inferior hitters who typically bat at the bottom......many exceptions there.
    Perhaps that's the fundamental problem with your view and other folks' -- you have a notion of batting-order roles that's more rigid and rooted in smallball-era "conventional wisdom" than the more modern research-based thinking in an era where we need to score six runs a game just to keep up with our so-called pitching.

    Scoring runs is a process of getting guys on and getting them home, and it's the same process regardless of whether it's the first, fourth or seventh hitter leading off the inning. On-base is key everywhere; power is helpful everywhere. Get the best hitters up early, so they get more at-bats over the course of the season, and don't worry too much about if they're an "OBP guy" or an "RBI guy." Over 162 games, what a #2 hitter and a #5 hitter are called upon to do from at-bat to at-bat is much more alike than different.

  5. #34
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    833

    Re: OPS vs. OBP vs. BAS

    Dunn has been a "tweener". With the cost-conscious Reds at 400,000 a year they clearly decided that it was a good business decision to use the majors as his AAAA training ground. Even at the expense of a solid NOW contributor Jose Guillen.

    However, those "coaches" who some say have "meddled" with him have done anything but. They were making an effort to help him to become a bonafide major leaguer. You draft the big swing in hopes of helping him to get the fundamentals after the fact. He hasn't done it. Push is now coming to shove.

    Boone bounced him around in the order hoping to find a place where he could make a solid/consistent contribution. He had the OBP for the top of order but couldn't run or handle the bat well enough. Gave him a chance batting 4/5 but strikeouts and hitting shortcomings were too great. Batting 6/7 he becomes an easy BB for opposing pitcher to then take chances on Larson/Mateo.

    He is still young. Of course, no way to know for sure but I've seen enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by ochre
    age?

    experience?

    "coaches" trying to change his approach because they apparently think similarly to you?

  6. #35
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    south of the border
    Posts
    23,858

    Re: OPS vs. OBP vs. BAS

    Quote Originally Posted by DunnHater
    But....honestly, I haven't looked at that stat that much in detail.
    Now that's a shocker.

    Batting average is the only damn thing the matters. If you don't hit .300 you suck ... that's what it says in my book.

  7. #36
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    833

    Re: OPS vs. OBP vs. BAS

    Fair point. However, 1)this is the national league (and the Reds) where #9 is usually a sure out. 2)On this team #7 and #8 slots have been occupied by painfully bad hitters.

    When you don't have enough overall team talent to make your batting order relatively unimportant it becomes critical. The order needs to be set with the right players in the right spots to maximize scoring opportunities and runs.

    Additionally, when relatively short on overall raw talent "versatility" of the talent you have becomes even more important. Best to have players who can help you in a variety of ways so that the team can better manufacture runs.


    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed
    Perhaps that's the fundamental problem with your view and other folks' -- you have a notion of batting-order roles that's more rigid and rooted in smallball-era "conventional wisdom" than the more modern research-based thinking in an era where we need to score six runs a game just to keep up with our so-called pitching.

    Scoring runs is a process of getting guys on and getting them home, and it's the same process regardless of whether it's the first, fourth or seventh hitter leading off the inning. On-base is key everywhere; power is helpful everywhere. Get the best hitters up early, so they get more at-bats over the course of the season, and don't worry too much about if they're an "OBP guy" or an "RBI guy." Over 162 games, what a #2 hitter and a #5 hitter are called upon to do from at-bat to at-bat is much more alike than different.

  8. #37
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    south of the border
    Posts
    23,858

    Re: OPS vs. OBP vs. BAS

    If you follow Bill James at all. OPS is a very good statistic. Just think who the best hitters are and then look at the OPS ranking. It goes right down the list.

    That said is that OBP is slightly more important component than SLG% and is slightly understated by the OPS stat. Of course that means that Barry Bonds is even farther ahead than the OPS stat indicates.

    Of course I am not sure of the point of all this as Dunn lead the Reds in OBP, SLG%, OPS, etc. By almost every statistical measure he was the best Reds offensive player, so what is the point of all this?

  9. #38
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    south of the border
    Posts
    23,858

    Re: OPS vs. OBP vs. BAS

    Quote Originally Posted by DunnHater
    But you have to look at every dollar of spending with the Reds.
    Which is why the Reds would be better off not paying Jr and Casey the big bucks. Dunn will still be under-value at $4M a year.

    Sure looks better paying DUnn $4M that Larue and DJ their $3M.

  10. #39
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    833

    Re: OPS vs. OBP vs. BAS

    Point is he is about to get a raise in the millions. Time to cut the cord. Reds can't afford to pay a player of his type what today's baseball economics will likely demand. (It's nothing personal)

    But again, on a higher level and the point of the thread was that OPS to some extent mixes apples and oranges. I'd rather keep them separate. Assign appropriate weight to OBP and to SLG, Batting Avg..... along with fielding, intangibles, speed etc. etc...when attempting to make an overall player appraisal. A Dunn-type player is a good example of an OPS overstating player value.


    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85
    If you follow Bill James at all. OPS is a very good statistic. Just think who the best hitters are and then look at the OPS ranking. It goes right down the list.

    That said is that OBP is slightly more important component than SLG% and is slightly understated by the OPS stat. Of course that means that Barry Bonds is even farther ahead than the OPS stat indicates.

    Of course I am not sure of the point of all this as Dunn lead the Reds in OBP, SLG%, OPS, etc. By almost every statistical measure he was the best Reds offensive player, so what is the point of all this?

  11. #40
    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    7,595

    Re: OPS vs. OBP vs. BAS

    If it's nothing personal, why the moniker?
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

  12. #41
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    833

    Re: OPS vs. OBP vs. BAS

    ha ha
    good one (call my bluff)......ok....(well just a tiny bit personal)....I used to like him more and he seems like good guy etc.. etc...

    But .... that whole bit with Guillen two years ago.....here's a guy (Dunn) who had been afforded 2 years+ of major league opportunity to start making adjustments and upgrade his game but he continued to struggle. Then you had Guillen who was far and away the best offensive contributor on team. Dunn could have chosen to be the humble, young player, team guy grateful for chance in majors and yield to the better performing player. Instead he chose to cling to his coregroup spot/seat etc.. etc.....

    That didn't make him a bad guy (of course) but from that point on I've become much more impatient. Guys like Pena, Freel, Guillen and others lost playing opportunity to Dunn. And I just don't see enough improvement. He is still pretty much the same player he was 4 years ago.



    Quote Originally Posted by wheels
    If it's nothing personal, why the moniker?

  13. #42
    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    7,595

    Re: OPS vs. OBP vs. BAS

    What are saying, man?

    Are you saying that Dunn was selfish to continue to play? Should he have sat out even though his name was on the lineup card?

    I can see it now..."Sorry, Bob, but I ain't playin'...Jose's better."

    Next thing you know, you'll be lamenting the fact that the Reds let Roberto Petagine go.
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

  14. #43
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    833

    Re: OPS vs. OBP vs. BAS

    Both Freel and Pena showed last year some of what they are capable of when given opportunity. BOTH of them have had their playing opportunities squeezed the last few years in favor of young Dunn with the presumed "great potential".

    "Should" he have yielded to the better performing player? His call. Had he done it he wouldn't have been the first. Professionals in all sports and professions do it all the time.

    Just don't ask me to be patient and ok with the "He's only 22" or "He's only 23" or "He's only 24/25". He is now a five year player still with the same problems with his game as year one.

    Quote Originally Posted by wheels
    What are saying, man?

    Are you saying that Dunn was selfish to continue to play? Should he have sat out even though his name was on the lineup card?

    I can see it now..."Sorry, Bob, but I ain't playin'...Jose's better."

    Next thing you know, you'll be lamenting the fact that the Reds let Roberto Petagine go.

  15. #44
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    9,375

    Re: OPS vs. OBP vs. BAS

    Both Freel and Pena showed last year some of what they are capable of when given opportunity. BOTH of them have had their playing opportunities squeezed the last few years in favor of young Dunn with the presumed "great potential".
    Sure. And Jim Thome should bench himself so Jason Michaels can get more AB for the Phillies.

    Particularly amusing that Pena was a "low average/high strikeout" hitter as well last year. In fact, if you were making any effort to be consistent, Pena is exactly the kind of guy you'd be including on your "Players to Hate On" list.

    Yet, you support Pena while continuing, without reason, to indict the most productive offensive player on the Reds.

    Funny.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

  16. #45
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Posts
    12,324

    Re: OPS vs. OBP vs. BAS

    And you also say OBP and SLG are the two most important stats, yet you dislike Dunn. BTW, Adam Dunn was clearly better than Jose "Clubhouse Cancer" Guillen.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25