OPS vs. OBP vs. BAS

[RosieRed]

Jose Guillen career OBP: .322
Adam Dunn career OBP: .382

Jose Guillen career SLG: .443
Adam Dunn career SLG: .512

Jose Guillen career OPS: .764
Adam Dunn career OPS: .893

[RFS62]

Both Freel and Pena showed last year some of what they are capable of when given opportunity. BOTH of them have had their playing opportunities squeezed the last few years in favor of young Dunn with the presumed "great potential".

"Should" he have yielded to the better performing player? His call. Had he done it he wouldn't have been the first. Professionals in all sports and professions do it all the time.

Just don't ask me to be patient and ok with the "He's only 22" or "He's only 23" or "He's only 24/25". He is now a five year player still with the same problems with his game as year one.

Allow me to just say "wow".

"Wow" is kind of overused these days. I'm trying to only use it when I'm truly shocked or amazed. And around here, that takes a lot.

But, allow me to reiterate..... freakin' Wow!!!!

[BadFundamentals]

ok....(sigh).......I'll connect ALL the dots for you if that's what it takes.

Yes, Pena strikes out too much, still struggles in the field etc...But Pena made two very important improvements last year (and others). He actually hit a couple curve balls AND he made a conscious effort (and was successful) at using the whole field beoming a more complete hitter.

Dunn looked like he might do the same for parts of the first month. After that, he was back to yanking most everything to right (unless fooled or late). In the words of the Pirates announcer "swing hard in case you hit something".

I'd rather take my chances on a guy who made great strides in his FIRST year of significant playing time and who his striving to be more than one dimensional then a guy headed into his 5th year who is still the same one dimensional guy he was in year one. Dunn looks quite comfortable and content with being a just a big swing and Reds can't afford to carry that.

Sure. And Jim Thome should bench himself so Jason Michaels can get more AB for the Phillies.

Particularly amusing that Pena was a "low average/high strikeout" hitter as well last year. In fact, if you were making any effort to be consistent, Pena is exactly the kind of guy you'd be including on your "Players to Hate On" list.

Yet, you support Pena while continuing, without reason, to indict the most productive offensive player on the Reds.

Funny.

[BadFundamentals]

I'm not the president of the Jose Guillen club. But I can tell a guy who (mid year 2003) is dialed in and showing no signs of cooling off. And I favor playing guys who produce over those with the "presumed potential".

Jose Guillen career OBP: .322
Adam Dunn career OBP: .382

Jose Guillen career SLG: .443
Adam Dunn career SLG: .512

Jose Guillen career OPS: .764
Adam Dunn career OPS: .893

[BadFundamentals]

On this team (with its budget and relative talent), I would look at HITTING first when looking for RBI guys (batting, slugging, fundamentals etc..). And if I'm going to pay millions for a guy I better be able to bat him in the top 5 in the batting order.

Dunn and his OBP are of marginal value when he doesn't have the bat control, speed etc. to hit high in the order and take advantage of it.

And you also say OBP and SLG are the two most important stats, yet you dislike Dunn. BTW, Adam Dunn was clearly better than Jose "Clubhouse Cancer" Guillen.

[westofyou]

Last year only 7 players had 80 EBH, 100 Runs, 100 RBI.

All except Adam Dunn played on Playoff teams.

It's obvious that Dunn is the problem.

EXTRA BASE HITS >= 80
RUNS >= 100
RBI >= 100
RUNS CREATED/GAME vs. the league average 
AGE displayed only

AVERAGE                         AVG      EBH       R       RBI     RC/G      AGE    
1    Vladimir Guerrero          .337       80      124      126     3.44       28   
2    Adrian Beltre              .334       80      104      121     3.89       25   
3    Albert Pujols              .331       99      133      123     4.52       24   
4    Manny Ramirez              .308       87      108      130     3.43       32   
5    Jim Edmonds                .301       83      102      111     5.23       34   
6    Carlos Beltran             .267       83      121      104     2.59       27   
7    Adam Dunn                  .266       80      105      102     2.92       24

[MWM]

What RFS62 said.

[Tom Lawless Fan]

Fair point. However, 1)this is the national league (and the Reds) where #9 is usually a sure out. 2)On this team #7 and #8 slots have been occupied by painfully bad hitters.

When you don't have enough overall team talent to make your batting order relatively unimportant it becomes critical. The order needs to be set with the right players in the right spots to maximize scoring opportunities and runs.

Additionally, when relatively short on overall raw talent "versatility" of the talent you have becomes even more important. Best to have players who can help you in a variety of ways so that the team can better manufacture runs.

RIGHT ON! :gac:

[MWM]

Manufacture runs!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's all we needed to make this thread complete.

[baseballPAP]

Talk about someone typing just to see what it looks like on the screen! Your argument is so full of holes, you'll be getting a call from whoever holds the patent on swiss cheese.

Dunn is good at getting on base. That makes him a good top of the order hitter, according to you DH(interesting what other phrase comes to mind with those initials). But wait...he doesn't handle the bat well enough...OK, well then he sucks.
Dunn is a good power hitter. That makes him a good RBI man, again according to the gospel of DH. But wait, he is ALSO good at getting on base, so that means he can't be a good middle of the lineup hitter...again, he sucks.

Hmmmmm maybe you could change your name to BondsHater...he has the same skills(GREATER, obviously)....good at getting on base and power....man, he must suck even more than my man AD!

[flyer85]

He actually hit a couple curve balls AND he made a conscious effort (and was successful) at using the whole field beoming a more complete hitter.

And where did you find the statistic that told you that?

Oh, let me see, that is anecdotal evidence based on your observation, I get it.

[RosieRed]

Manufacture runs!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's all we needed to make this thread complete.

Don't forget the SAC FLIES! :

[Tom Lawless Fan]

Don't forget the SAC FLIES! :

Youre right rosie scarifices make a hitter into a complete hitter there really important and I dont think Dunn hase too many of them.

[BadFundamentals]

I doubt Dunn will ever hit 30+ doubles again (I guess time will tell).
But yes, his 46 HRs and 34 doubles last year (a contract year) were nice. No disputing that.

Last year only 7 players had 80 EBH, 100 Runs, 100 RBI.

All except Adam Dunn played on Playoff teams.

It's obvious that Dunn is the problem.

EXTRA BASE HITS >= 80
RUNS >= 100
RBI >= 100
RUNS CREATED/GAME vs. the league average 
AGE displayed only

AVERAGE                         AVG      EBH       R       RBI     RC/G      AGE    
1    Vladimir Guerrero          .337       80      124      126     3.44       28   
2    Adrian Beltre              .334       80      104      121     3.89       25   
3    Albert Pujols              .331       99      133      123     4.52       24   
4    Manny Ramirez              .308       87      108      130     3.43       32   
5    Jim Edmonds                .301       83      102      111     5.23       34   
6    Carlos Beltran             .267       83      121      104     2.59       27   
7    Adam Dunn                  .266       80      105      102     2.92       24

[BadFundamentals]

You don't bat in your 3, 4 or 5 (your key rbi slots) a guy who is capable of 200+ strikeouts a season and who can't a hit a lick with RISP (lifetime less than .210).

You don't bat in your 1, 2 or 3 spots a guy who can't handle that bat and can't run (despite his OBP).

If Reds had the $$$$$, I'd say pay him and bat him 6th or 7th. Reds can't afford that. Spend those millions elsewhere and hope that Casey, Kearns, Griff, Pena etc... can handle the power needs.

He's been given 4 years of opportunity to become a legitimate 3,4 or 5 rbi guy but he still isn't.

Talk about someone typing just to see what it looks like on the screen! Your argument is so full of holes, you'll be getting a call from whoever holds the patent on swiss cheese.

Dunn is good at getting on base. That makes him a good top of the order hitter, according to you DH(interesting what other phrase comes to mind with those initials). But wait...he doesn't handle the bat well enough...OK, well then he sucks.
Dunn is a good power hitter. That makes him a good RBI man, again according to the gospel of DH. But wait, he is ALSO good at getting on base, so that means he can't be a good middle of the lineup hitter...again, he sucks.

Hmmmmm maybe you could change your name to BondsHater...he has the same skills(GREATER, obviously)....good at getting on base and power....man, he must suck even more than my man AD!