age?Originally Posted by DunnHater
experience?
"coaches" trying to change his approach because they apparently think similarly to you?
age?Originally Posted by DunnHater
experience?
"coaches" trying to change his approach because they apparently think similarly to you?
4009
Dunn's SLG-
2001 - .578
2002 - .454
2003 - .465
2004 - .569
Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David
Perhaps that's the fundamental problem with your view and other folks' -- you have a notion of batting-order roles that's more rigid and rooted in smallball-era "conventional wisdom" than the more modern research-based thinking in an era where we need to score six runs a game just to keep up with our so-called pitching.Originally Posted by DunnHater
Scoring runs is a process of getting guys on and getting them home, and it's the same process regardless of whether it's the first, fourth or seventh hitter leading off the inning. On-base is key everywhere; power is helpful everywhere. Get the best hitters up early, so they get more at-bats over the course of the season, and don't worry too much about if they're an "OBP guy" or an "RBI guy." Over 162 games, what a #2 hitter and a #5 hitter are called upon to do from at-bat to at-bat is much more alike than different.
Dunn has been a "tweener". With the cost-conscious Reds at 400,000 a year they clearly decided that it was a good business decision to use the majors as his AAAA training ground. Even at the expense of a solid NOW contributor Jose Guillen.
However, those "coaches" who some say have "meddled" with him have done anything but. They were making an effort to help him to become a bonafide major leaguer. You draft the big swing in hopes of helping him to get the fundamentals after the fact. He hasn't done it. Push is now coming to shove.
Boone bounced him around in the order hoping to find a place where he could make a solid/consistent contribution. He had the OBP for the top of order but couldn't run or handle the bat well enough. Gave him a chance batting 4/5 but strikeouts and hitting shortcomings were too great. Batting 6/7 he becomes an easy BB for opposing pitcher to then take chances on Larson/Mateo.
He is still young. Of course, no way to know for sure but I've seen enough.
Originally Posted by ochre
Now that's a shocker.Originally Posted by DunnHater
Batting average is the only damn thing the matters. If you don't hit .300 you suck ... that's what it says in my book.
Fair point. However, 1)this is the national league (and the Reds) where #9 is usually a sure out. 2)On this team #7 and #8 slots have been occupied by painfully bad hitters.
When you don't have enough overall team talent to make your batting order relatively unimportant it becomes critical. The order needs to be set with the right players in the right spots to maximize scoring opportunities and runs.
Additionally, when relatively short on overall raw talent "versatility" of the talent you have becomes even more important. Best to have players who can help you in a variety of ways so that the team can better manufacture runs.
Originally Posted by IslandRed
If you follow Bill James at all. OPS is a very good statistic. Just think who the best hitters are and then look at the OPS ranking. It goes right down the list.
That said is that OBP is slightly more important component than SLG% and is slightly understated by the OPS stat. Of course that means that Barry Bonds is even farther ahead than the OPS stat indicates.
Of course I am not sure of the point of all this as Dunn lead the Reds in OBP, SLG%, OPS, etc. By almost every statistical measure he was the best Reds offensive player, so what is the point of all this?
Which is why the Reds would be better off not paying Jr and Casey the big bucks. Dunn will still be under-value at $4M a year.Originally Posted by DunnHater
Sure looks better paying DUnn $4M that Larue and DJ their $3M.
Point is he is about to get a raise in the millions. Time to cut the cord. Reds can't afford to pay a player of his type what today's baseball economics will likely demand. (It's nothing personal)
But again, on a higher level and the point of the thread was that OPS to some extent mixes apples and oranges. I'd rather keep them separate. Assign appropriate weight to OBP and to SLG, Batting Avg..... along with fielding, intangibles, speed etc. etc...when attempting to make an overall player appraisal. A Dunn-type player is a good example of an OPS overstating player value.
Originally Posted by flyer85
If it's nothing personal, why the moniker?
"Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field?" ~ Jim Bouton
ha ha
good one (call my bluff)......ok....(well just a tiny bit personal)....I used to like him more and he seems like good guy etc.. etc...
But .... that whole bit with Guillen two years ago.....here's a guy (Dunn) who had been afforded 2 years+ of major league opportunity to start making adjustments and upgrade his game but he continued to struggle. Then you had Guillen who was far and away the best offensive contributor on team. Dunn could have chosen to be the humble, young player, team guy grateful for chance in majors and yield to the better performing player. Instead he chose to cling to his coregroup spot/seat etc.. etc.....
That didn't make him a bad guy (of course) but from that point on I've become much more impatient. Guys like Pena, Freel, Guillen and others lost playing opportunity to Dunn. And I just don't see enough improvement. He is still pretty much the same player he was 4 years ago.
Originally Posted by wheels
What are saying, man?
Are you saying that Dunn was selfish to continue to play? Should he have sat out even though his name was on the lineup card?
I can see it now..."Sorry, Bob, but I ain't playin'...Jose's better."
Next thing you know, you'll be lamenting the fact that the Reds let Roberto Petagine go.
"Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field?" ~ Jim Bouton
Both Freel and Pena showed last year some of what they are capable of when given opportunity. BOTH of them have had their playing opportunities squeezed the last few years in favor of young Dunn with the presumed "great potential".
"Should" he have yielded to the better performing player? His call. Had he done it he wouldn't have been the first. Professionals in all sports and professions do it all the time.
Just don't ask me to be patient and ok with the "He's only 22" or "He's only 23" or "He's only 24/25". He is now a five year player still with the same problems with his game as year one.
Originally Posted by wheels
Sure. And Jim Thome should bench himself so Jason Michaels can get more AB for the Phillies.Both Freel and Pena showed last year some of what they are capable of when given opportunity. BOTH of them have had their playing opportunities squeezed the last few years in favor of young Dunn with the presumed "great potential".
Particularly amusing that Pena was a "low average/high strikeout" hitter as well last year. In fact, if you were making any effort to be consistent, Pena is exactly the kind of guy you'd be including on your "Players to Hate On" list.
Yet, you support Pena while continuing, without reason, to indict the most productive offensive player on the Reds.
Funny.
"The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer
"The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
--Ted Williams
And you also say OBP and SLG are the two most important stats, yet you dislike Dunn. BTW, Adam Dunn was clearly better than Jose "Clubhouse Cancer" Guillen.
Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David
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