Strike out = to any other out?

[westofyou]

You have, again, begun your argument with a conclusion (More Hits= More Runs) that you can't support.

Once again I remember my youth.

CAREER
1970-1979
WALKS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
RUNS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
STRIKEOUTS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria

HITS                            DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     BB        R       SO     
1    Twins                       623    14799    14176       29      315      167   
2    Redsox                      539    14579    14040      169      830      465   
3    Pirates                     375    15031    14656    -1038      261      694   
4    Yankees                     327    14366    14039     -170      173     -875   
5    Royals                      254    14404    14150      -21      271     -527   
6    Whitesox                     31    14146    14115     -255     -165      247   
7    Cardinals                    12    14726    14714     -727     -313       28   
8    Reds                       -136    14406    14542      549      566     1400   
9    Mariners                   -170     4215     4385     -111     -221      -60   
10   Dodgers                    -251    14405    14656     -185      -55      232   

STRIKEOUTS                      DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     BB        R       SO     
1    Reds                       1400     9222     7822      549      566     1400   
2    Padres                     1177     9117     7940     -705    -1315     1177   
3    Phillies                   1140     9017     7877     -304     -290     1140   
4    Brewers                    1086     8906     7820     -136     -298     1086   
5    Giants                     1058     8927     7869      196     -218     1058   
6    A's                         972     8801     7829       -6     -230      972   
7    Orioles                     856     8626     7770      525      156      856   
8    Expos                       728     8632     7904     -314     -751      728   
9    Mets                        717     8685     7968     -106    -1053      717   
10   Pirates                     694     8577     7883    -1038      261      694

[BadFundamentals]

RE: A "better" study would be to find 100 or 1000 games where the number of Hits and BBs for a given team were the same (and the types of hits). Then for those 100 games make the same graph.

i'm not sure that's possible. even if it is, it presents the problem of how fast the baserunners are.

I'm sure it is possible however, it would I agree take some work. Yes, you'd still have variables (speed of baserunners, outs other than strikeouts, wild pitches, errors etc... etc....) but the fewer the variables the better. I was not at all surprised to see the "lifeless blob" graph because with that study a game with 4 strikeouts and 20 hits and who knows what else?? is the same as an error free game with 4 strikeouts and 2 hits.

[NJReds]

2. Secondly, the second part of the study (for pitchers) contradicts the conclusion of the first part. I quote the "more strikeouts mean fewer balls in play. Fewer balls in play mean (on average) fewer hits surrendered. And with fewer hits surrendered come fewer runs allowed. " All you need to do is make that same statement from a hitting/offensive point of view and you have:

"more strikeouts mean fewer balls in play. Fewer balls in play mean (on average) fewer hits. And with fewer hits come fewer runs SCORED. "

Let's look at your point practically? You don't like Dunn -- KRISP, etc. is just a way to make that point -- let's turn the tables.

Would you want the pitching equivalant of Dunn in your rotation? A guy that leads the league in strikouts, but also among the league leaders in walks and HRs allowed? I don't think so.

[SteelSD]

Let's look at your point practically? You don't like Dunn -- KRISP, etc. is just a way to make that point -- let's turn the tables.

Would you want the pitching equivalant of Dunn in your rotation? A guy that leads the league in strikouts, but also among the league leaders in walks and HRs allowed? I don't think so.

Cliff Lee circa 2004.

[Ravenlord]

Would you want the pitching equivalant of Dunn in your rotation? A guy that leads the league in strikouts, but also among the league leaders in walks and HRs allowed? I don't think so.

that got me thinking. approximately, what would that the stat line of RHP Adam Dunn look like? well, it'd look something like this for 2004:

ERA	IP	WHIP	K/BB	BB/9	K/9	H/9	HR/9
8.03	139	1.86	1.81	6.99	12.63	9.78	2.98

amazingly bad pitching eh?

surprisngly enough, it wasn't as difficult as i thought it'd be to turn Dunn's counting stats into a pitching line.

[BadFundamentals]

NJ, c'mon don't derail us on this now. No, I'm not Dunn's biggest fan but this is not about Dunn it is about "the strikeout" (I'll resist a cheap shot there)

I'm also not the biggest fan of Reggie Kaylor, Krussel Kranyan, Brandon Larson, Lopez and others.......

But I'm not going to let you drag me down................ :gac:

[BadFundamentals]

that got me thinking. approximately, what would that the stat line of RHP Adam Dunn look like? well, it'd look something like this for 2004:

Interesting Ravenlord, do me a favor please if spreadsheet still handy, use career numbers for Dunn rather than just last year.


But interesting.... regardless. Thems alot of Ks there but not too shabby in the hits, bbs, hrs etc. departments either.........

[MWM]

Yeah, let's ignore the fact that Dunn is 24 years old and still on a learning curve because that helps make my point stronger. Brilliant.

[Ravenlord]

Dunn's pitching stats expanded:

Year	ERA	IP	WHIP	K/BB	BB/9	K/9	H/9	HR/9
2004	8.03	139	1.86	1.81	6.99	12.63	9.78	2.98
2003	6.06	101	1.54	1.70	6.59	11.23	7.31	2.41
2002	6.98	135.1	1.93	1.33	8.51	11.31	8.85	1.80
2001	7.65	60	1.70	1.95	5.70	11.10	9.60	2.85
career	7.19	435.1	1.79	1.62	7.19	11.68	8.89	2.44

logically speaking, this is the numbers all pitchers have put up against Adam Dunn. in other words, these rates are what happen when an average MLB pitcher faces Dunn.

[SteelSD]

Yeah, let's ignore the fact that Dunn is 24 years old and still on a learning curve because that helps make my point stronger. Brilliant.

Time to just sit back and wait for woy's post on where Dunn's OPS stands historically for all MLB players who posted 2000 PA by age 24.

[MWM]

Time to just sit back and wait for woy's post on where Dunn's OPS stands historically for all MLB players who posted 2000 PA by age 24.

Who cares about OPS. What's more important is his BA with runners on second base with two outs in the 9th in night games played east of the Mississippi River on even numbered months and odd numbered days with a crescent moon and partly cloudy skies. Oh yeah, that and their KRISP.

[BadFundamentals]

Interesting....(thanks).....certainly better than I'd have expected. Duly noted.

As for the K vs. other outs, I'm sticking to my position for now. I will be checking out that study in greater detail but my first impression is the plot graph thing is a "bad study" - far too many variables. And again, their second (pitching) conclusion refutes the first.

Dunn's pitching stats expanded:

Year	ERA	IP	WHIP	K/BB	BB/9	K/9	H/9	HR/9
2004	8.03	139	1.86	1.81	6.99	12.63	9.78	2.98
2003	6.06	101	1.54	1.70	6.59	11.23	7.31	2.41
2002	6.98	135.1	1.93	1.33	8.51	11.31	8.85	1.80
2001	7.65	60	1.70	1.95	5.70	11.10	9.60	2.85
career	7.19	435.1	1.79	1.62	7.19	11.68	8.89	2.44

logically speaking, this is the numbers all pitchers have put up against Adam Dunn. in other words, these rates are what happen when an average MLB pitcher faces Dunn.

[M2]

I don't get all this Krisp talk. It's Coco Crisp, not Koko Krisp (who'd be the bastard DNA mix of Koko B. Ware and Kettle Krisp Cheese Balls).

[TRF]

Gah!

I am really having trouble adding anything new to convince you.

I doubt anyone here can.

But here are a few facts from this thread alone.

152 of his 195 strike outs took place with either no one on base (thus no way to advance a runner) or with runners on but with 2 outs (also, no way to advance a runner).

At least 78% of his K's meant nothing more then a "regular" out.

BF has stated that strikeouts are bad, while everyone else in this thread has said, no worse than any other out, even prefferable to some (runner on 1st, 1 out, GO to 2B)

BF has created impossible scenarios (27 FO's vs 27K's with a few walks thrown in for baserunners) to prove that K's are the worst kind of out?

Find me a game in the history of MLB that had 27 FO's is my response.

BF refuses to believe that OBP and SLG is superior to BA, so I am dragging out Raisor's mantra:

If we all agree that a double is better than a single, and a triple is better than a double, and a HR is better than a triple, why give weight to a stat that treats them all equally?

[NJReds]

NJ, c'mon don't derail us on this now. No, I'm not Dunn's biggest fan but this is not about Dunn it is about "the strikeout" (I'll resist a cheap shot there)

I'm also not the biggest fan of Reggie Kaylor, Krussel Kranyan, Brandon Larson, Lopez and others.......

But I'm not going to let you drag me down................ :gac:

Who are you kidding, this has always been about Dunn.

But I know. You don't like Thome or Reggie Jackson, either. Or any other "KRISPY" players, for that matter. Just give you Alex Sanchez and Juan Castro at the top of your lineup...Brandon Inge batting cleanup and you'll be a happy fan. :allovrjr: