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Thread: Why All The Negativity?

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  1. #1
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    Why All The Negativity?

    Have to ask why all the negativity towards the Reds moves this offseason? They go out and shore up the bullpen, acquire a good fielding third baseman that is a capable hitter in the seventh spot of the order. They acquire a lefty pitcher capable of winning 15 games.

    But judging by reactions on this board, you would think the Reds don't have a clue to what they are doing. They don't spend money they get criticized. They spend money and people complained that they overpaid.

    Seems to me no matter what they do it won't be to the fans satisfaction. Even if they acquired Randy Johnson you would have people complaining the talent the Reds gave up and assuming Johnson's contract.

    The Reds have money. They just don't tell the world they do. It helps them in their negotiations with the agents.

    I have to say if you can't get excited about the moves the Reds have made without trading anyone with the exception of Moseley, then nothing will. I can hear it now if the Reds are winning next year with fans saying another collapse is just around the corner.

    Like I said the doom and gloom on this board by some people is amazing considering the Reds haven't even played a game yet for the 2005 season.
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    Amen Krusty

  3. #3
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    Krusty,

    What I see is accentuating the downside of the transactions and looking at the deals on an individual basis. From the posts you've made, it seems you recognize that the whole may be greater than the sum of its parts. That part of the equation seems to be missing from the analyses I've seen that are dead set against what the Reds have done.

    Personally, Milton is pricey, and I think he is being paid about $3M a year too much. But then, when I look at the market, I do believe that he was likely to get the same money elsewhere, so in that sense we didn't overpay.

    I can see where both camps are coming from, and like most things, you can throw out the extreme "Totally Hate It, we're doomed" opinions on one end and the extreme "Great job DanO, we're now contenders" opinions on the other end and the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.
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  4. #4
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor

    Personally, Milton is pricey, and I think he is being paid about $3M a year too much. But then, when I look at the market, I do believe that he was likely to get the same money elsewhere, so in that sense we didn't overpay.
    When Joe Mays gets 7.25 a year it's gonna be hard to pick up guys for pennies.

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    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    When Joe Mays gets 7.25 a year it's gonna be hard to pick up guys for pennies.
    That was my thought this morning. I know some are skeptical about what Milton was gonna get from the big boys, but the Phils paid him $9M last year, so its reasonable to assume that he would get similar money in this market. From his perspective, he could say he had a good season last year, blame the ballpark for the outrageous home runs allowed, and say he actually took a pay cut to come to the Reds.

    Like it or not, we are going to have to pay some market prices here and there, and they are not always going to be our first choices. I do think that this is somewhat virgin territory to see the Reds have to pay through the nose just to secure some average pitchers, but with the years of non-prductivity from the farm system, the mortgage came due.
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  6. #6
    Member Spitball's Avatar
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    It is good to see the front office finally realize they are going to have to spend some money to put fannies in the seats (and thus make money).

  7. #7
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    Well said.

  8. #8
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krusty
    They go out and shore up the bullpen, acquire a good fielding third baseman that is a capable hitter in the seventh spot of the order.
    Respectfully Krusty, that's just your opinion and others don't have to agree with it. That doesn't make them "negative", it just means they've analyzed the situation and come to a different conclusion than you have. That is allowed isn't it.

    They don't spend money they get criticized. They spend money and people complained that they overpaid.
    Not the same people, Krusty. There are a lot of people on this board with amny opinons. I have never been one to toot the horn of just spend money. I know lots of people who feel the same way I do. Those people who simply wanted the Reds to spend money have been very happy this offseason. Seeriously Krusty, have you looked atthe Milton thread and the poll thread? There's an overwhelming majority of people who actually DO like the Milton signing and the moves the FO has made. So what's the poblem. Does EVERYONE have to agree. No, there's always going to be people who disagree with the majority and they shouldn't be marginalized because of it.

    I have to say if you can't get excited about the moves the Reds have made without trading anyone with the exception of Moseley, then nothing will.
    Come on Krusty, don't you think that's a little of an exaggeration? There's plenty of things the Reds could do that would make me and plenty of the naysayers happy. Do you think the Reds have a chance to conend for the playoffs this year?

    I can hear it now if the Reds are winning next year with fans saying another collapse is just around the corner.
    Now this is a comment I don't get. Have you watched the last three years? If they come out of the gate winning, there's a good chance another collapse WILL be around the corner. People have predicted it in each of the last two years and been utterly lambasted for it. But were they right or wrong? And trust me, there's no joy in being right about it. I would have LOVED nothing more than to be completely and utterly wrong about the collapse. But when you look at all the factors and objectively analyze the situation, it was clear that the Reds early season success wasn't sustainable. Some of us just spoke up and voiced our opinion.
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  9. #9
    Member Ryan the Reds Fan's Avatar
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM
    There's plenty of things the Reds could do that would make me and plenty of the naysayers happy.
    MWM, I'm curious, what are some of these things?

  10. #10
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan the Reds Fan
    MWM, I'm curious, what are some of these things?
    Acquire a single player who was worth significantly more Runs than average in 2003 versus their positional peer group.

    For starters.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

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  11. #11
    Puffy's Daddy Red Leader's Avatar
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD
    Acquire a single player who was worth significantly more Runs than average in 2003 versus their positional peer group.

    For starters.

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  12. #12
    Member Ryan the Reds Fan's Avatar
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD
    Acquire a single player who was worth significantly more Runs than average in 2003 versus their positional peer group.

    For starters.
    Such as? I'm just curious, trying to understand your perspective.

  13. #13
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan the Reds Fan
    Such as? I'm just curious, trying to understand your perspective.
    Why sign Randa when you have Freel?

    Why offer 25.5 mil to Milton if O. Perez is still on the market?

    Why trade a Mosely for an Ortiz? Especially if from all reports it is likely the reds could have gotten him for much less?

    Why not sign or at least go after Wade Miller? for 1.5 mil, he might be the steal of the off season.

    it's mistake after mistake after mistake going all the way back to drafting homer bailey over chris nelson.

    that's the reason for negativity.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  14. #14
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan the Reds Fan
    Such as? I'm just curious, trying to understand your perspective.
    Above average players are acquired by teams all the time. Many as Free Agents, many via trade.

    I could throw out the names "Matt Clement" and "Odalis Perez", but all that ends up leading to is claims of "Oh, the Reds couldn't have had either of those players at any price...etc...etc." Defeatist rhetoric.

    I disagree with that reasoning, but it appears to be pervasive. I fail to see the logic behind the concept that, because the Reds didn't sign Player A that means they couldn't have possibly signed Player A. The fact that something didn't happen in no way means that it couldn't have.

    Same tune, different notes as last season. Last year the defense was that O'Brien needed time to evaluate and that the Reds didn't have any money to spend. But now that he's had that time and has the money, what does he do? Spend it on average-to-below-average players, that's what.

    And O'Brien's praised for making the hampster-wheel "effort" to make the team better. I'll be supportive of the guy as soon as he actually DOES make the Reds significantly better.

    157 Runs. That's the improvment it'll take just to get the Reds to 81-81 in 2005. I don't see anything achieved this offseason that will significantly impact that number. Nada.

    Good General Managers make things happen that truly benefit their clubs. They find ways to do it.

    And it's not like folks have unrealistic expectations. Identify and acquire an above average performer who'll really help the Reds. Make it happen.

    O'Brien hasn't. Maybe...just maybe...some of the negativity from folks is tied to that one simple concept?

    Just a thought.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
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  15. #15
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    Having seen this organization over since Lindner bought the team I am skeptical.

    What if Milton pitches poorly and the Reds flop early. We will see another purge? Will Dunn and Kearns be traded because Jr and Milton are overpaid and the Reds "can't afford them"?

    Spending a little money this offseason is a start but will this FO see it through if the teams starts losing and the fans don't show up? I have little faith that they will and the cycle begins all over again.


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