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Thread: Why All The Negativity?

  1. #1
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    Why All The Negativity?

    Have to ask why all the negativity towards the Reds moves this offseason? They go out and shore up the bullpen, acquire a good fielding third baseman that is a capable hitter in the seventh spot of the order. They acquire a lefty pitcher capable of winning 15 games.

    But judging by reactions on this board, you would think the Reds don't have a clue to what they are doing. They don't spend money they get criticized. They spend money and people complained that they overpaid.

    Seems to me no matter what they do it won't be to the fans satisfaction. Even if they acquired Randy Johnson you would have people complaining the talent the Reds gave up and assuming Johnson's contract.

    The Reds have money. They just don't tell the world they do. It helps them in their negotiations with the agents.

    I have to say if you can't get excited about the moves the Reds have made without trading anyone with the exception of Moseley, then nothing will. I can hear it now if the Reds are winning next year with fans saying another collapse is just around the corner.

    Like I said the doom and gloom on this board by some people is amazing considering the Reds haven't even played a game yet for the 2005 season.
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    Amen Krusty

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    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    Krusty,

    What I see is accentuating the downside of the transactions and looking at the deals on an individual basis. From the posts you've made, it seems you recognize that the whole may be greater than the sum of its parts. That part of the equation seems to be missing from the analyses I've seen that are dead set against what the Reds have done.

    Personally, Milton is pricey, and I think he is being paid about $3M a year too much. But then, when I look at the market, I do believe that he was likely to get the same money elsewhere, so in that sense we didn't overpay.

    I can see where both camps are coming from, and like most things, you can throw out the extreme "Totally Hate It, we're doomed" opinions on one end and the extreme "Great job DanO, we're now contenders" opinions on the other end and the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.
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  5. #4
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor

    Personally, Milton is pricey, and I think he is being paid about $3M a year too much. But then, when I look at the market, I do believe that he was likely to get the same money elsewhere, so in that sense we didn't overpay.
    When Joe Mays gets 7.25 a year it's gonna be hard to pick up guys for pennies.

  6. #5
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    Well said.

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    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    When Joe Mays gets 7.25 a year it's gonna be hard to pick up guys for pennies.
    That was my thought this morning. I know some are skeptical about what Milton was gonna get from the big boys, but the Phils paid him $9M last year, so its reasonable to assume that he would get similar money in this market. From his perspective, he could say he had a good season last year, blame the ballpark for the outrageous home runs allowed, and say he actually took a pay cut to come to the Reds.

    Like it or not, we are going to have to pay some market prices here and there, and they are not always going to be our first choices. I do think that this is somewhat virgin territory to see the Reds have to pay through the nose just to secure some average pitchers, but with the years of non-prductivity from the farm system, the mortgage came due.
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  8. #7
    Member Spitball's Avatar
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    It is good to see the front office finally realize they are going to have to spend some money to put fannies in the seats (and thus make money).

  9. #8
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krusty
    They go out and shore up the bullpen, acquire a good fielding third baseman that is a capable hitter in the seventh spot of the order.
    Respectfully Krusty, that's just your opinion and others don't have to agree with it. That doesn't make them "negative", it just means they've analyzed the situation and come to a different conclusion than you have. That is allowed isn't it.

    They don't spend money they get criticized. They spend money and people complained that they overpaid.
    Not the same people, Krusty. There are a lot of people on this board with amny opinons. I have never been one to toot the horn of just spend money. I know lots of people who feel the same way I do. Those people who simply wanted the Reds to spend money have been very happy this offseason. Seeriously Krusty, have you looked atthe Milton thread and the poll thread? There's an overwhelming majority of people who actually DO like the Milton signing and the moves the FO has made. So what's the poblem. Does EVERYONE have to agree. No, there's always going to be people who disagree with the majority and they shouldn't be marginalized because of it.

    I have to say if you can't get excited about the moves the Reds have made without trading anyone with the exception of Moseley, then nothing will.
    Come on Krusty, don't you think that's a little of an exaggeration? There's plenty of things the Reds could do that would make me and plenty of the naysayers happy. Do you think the Reds have a chance to conend for the playoffs this year?

    I can hear it now if the Reds are winning next year with fans saying another collapse is just around the corner.
    Now this is a comment I don't get. Have you watched the last three years? If they come out of the gate winning, there's a good chance another collapse WILL be around the corner. People have predicted it in each of the last two years and been utterly lambasted for it. But were they right or wrong? And trust me, there's no joy in being right about it. I would have LOVED nothing more than to be completely and utterly wrong about the collapse. But when you look at all the factors and objectively analyze the situation, it was clear that the Reds early season success wasn't sustainable. Some of us just spoke up and voiced our opinion.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  10. #9
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    I think all the moves made aregood solid moves. I worry a bit about the relatively high risk of the pitchers, but thats why we could afford them. The bullpen moves were shocking to me, but welcomed by someone who is used to Gulley trying to re-vamp complete washouts. This time around he has a couple arms with some past success to build on. I still feel a trade coming from the OF, and the only one that makes sense is WMP.
    This ones for you Krusty:
    WMP, Randa and Graves to the Cubbies for Aramis Ramirez.

    Cuts salary, fills one hole while eliminating a surplus and a bad contract......
    Cubs get the OF to replace Sammy, a setup man and a replacement for Ramirez.

    Maybe?

  11. #10
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    but with the years of non-prductivity from the farm system, the mortgage came due.
    Yep, currently the Reds are unemployed and are using their high interest credit cards to buy stuff for the house. Stuff they need, but will have to pay a little more for over time.

    Sure they wanted that Krupps coffee maker and the wide screen TV, but the Mr Coffee and the 36 inch TV will have to do.

  12. #11
    Member Ryan the Reds Fan's Avatar
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM
    There's plenty of things the Reds could do that would make me and plenty of the naysayers happy.
    MWM, I'm curious, what are some of these things?

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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krusty
    Have to ask why all the negativity towards the Reds moves this offseason? They go out and shore up the bullpen, acquire a good fielding third baseman that is a capable hitter in the seventh spot of the order. They acquire a lefty pitcher capable of winning 15 games.

    But judging by reactions on this board, you would think the Reds don't have a clue to what they are doing. They don't spend money they get criticized. They spend money and people complained that they overpaid.

    Seems to me no matter what they do it won't be to the fans satisfaction. Even if they acquired Randy Johnson you would have people complaining the talent the Reds gave up and assuming Johnson's contract.

    The Reds have money. They just don't tell the world they do. It helps them in their negotiations with the agents.

    I have to say if you can't get excited about the moves the Reds have made without trading anyone with the exception of Moseley, then nothing will. I can hear it now if the Reds are winning next year with fans saying another collapse is just around the corner.

    Like I said the doom and gloom on this board by some people is amazing considering the Reds haven't even played a game yet for the 2005 season.
    "Strickland Propane... Taste the meat, not the heat." - Hank Hill

  14. #13
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    I think from a Red's point of view, they are trying to improve....but from a general baseball perspective they are not a championship team. It stil comes down to certain teams that spend more money, have a better farm system, etc...

    Lets look at the Red's starting pitchers they signed. All of them have 4 plus ERA's and average stats. Yes, once again from the Red's perspective, the team has improved but only to a certain degree.

    And didn't I once hear the Red's were rebuilding? Hmmm, so let's see. They trade their young pitching prospect(Mosely) for Ortiz. That's not staying young. Even though I think these are good additions to the team, Randa, Weber, Weathers, and Mercker are 35 and over. I'm looking forward to Encarncion in the minors to play third in a year or so.

    The Reds should be a 500 club next year, probably barely. It still comes down to other teams in this division that will dominate over the Reds.

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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM
    Do you think the Reds have a chance to conend for the playoffs this year?
    Yes.
    "Strickland Propane... Taste the meat, not the heat." - Hank Hill

  16. #15
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
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    Re: Why All The Negativity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan the Reds Fan
    MWM, I'm curious, what are some of these things?
    Acquire a single player who was worth significantly more Runs than average in 2003 versus their positional peer group.

    For starters.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams


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