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Thread: John Kerry and his dead horse

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  1. #1
    Smells Like Teen Spirit jmcclain19's Avatar
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    John Kerry and his dead horse

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?i...C-RSSFeeds0312
    Sad thing is, Kerry, if he really truly had a passion and desire for change on this issue, could be the focal point for a badly needed social reform on the voting front.

    America needs voter reform, as the last two elections (Washington/Florida) have shown.

    Kerry could take the ball, and his next term in Congress and make a lasting impression and push for change. But instead he'll continue to wrap up the idea with his attacks on President Bush and Iraq, meaning it will never be taken seriously in Congress, coming from his mouth.

    I know such an issue could get bi-partisan support. But keep throwing those campaign commerical attacks in there and you ensure that nothing will happen out ot spite. And the country will suffer.

    Just shows what his true feelings on the issue are. IMO.

    Kerry Criticizes Election Outcome

    Kerry Criticizes Election Outcome, Alleges Voter Disenfranchisement at MLK Breakfast

    BOSTON Jan 17, 2005 — Sen. John Kerry, in some of his most pointed public comments yet about the presidential election, invoked Martin Luther King Jr.'s legacy on Monday as he criticized President Bush and decried reports of voter disenfranchisement.

    The Massachusetts Democrat, Bush's challenger in November, spoke at Boston's annual Martin Luther King Day Breakfast. He reiterated that he decided not to challenge the election results, but "thousands of people were suppressed in the effort to vote."

    "Voting machines were distributed in uneven ways. In Democratic districts, it took people four, five, eleven hours to vote, while Republicans (went) through in 10 minutes same voting machines, same process, our America," he said.

    In his comments, Kerry also compared the democracy-building efforts in Iraq with voting in the U.S., saying that Americans had their names purged from voting lists and were kept from casting ballots.


    "In a nation which is willing to spend several hundred million dollars in Iraq to bring them democracy, we cannot tolerate that too many people here in America were denied that democracy," Kerry said.

    Voting irregularities in Ohio drove primarily Democratic challenges to the Nov. 2 election, but Congress eventually affirmed President Bush the winner by a slim electoral vote count of 286-251 plus a single vote cast by a Minnesota elector for Kerry's running mate, former Sen. John Edwards.

  2. #2
    CELEBRATION TIME RBA's Avatar
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    Re: John Kerry and his dead horse

    I think you are in denial.

    America needs voter reform, as the last two elections (Washington/Florida) have shown.
    Washington? How about Ohio? You don't think everything went peachy keen there? do you?

  3. #3
    Smells Like Teen Spirit jmcclain19's Avatar
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    Re: John Kerry and his dead horse

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBloodedAmerican
    I think you are in denial.
    Make sure you read the whole sentence you quoted.

  4. #4
    RZ Chamber of Commerce Unassisted's Avatar
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    Re: John Kerry and his dead horse

    Partisan pandering to lay groundwork for a run in 2008.

    Telling an audience what it wants to hear is an accepted (and effective) practice for candidates seeking votes or money. Kerry maintains all the outward appearance of a candidate. It is an unusually quick turnaround to start the next campaign, though.
    /r/reds

  5. #5
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: John Kerry and his dead horse

    And of course it is only Dems who get disenfranchised.

    In Ohio, in heavily Repub districts (Hamilton Co for example), alot of people also waited hours to vote. How do you explain that? It happened all over this country and in both both Repub and Dem districts.

    Personally, I don't think alot of states, voting districts, were properly prepared for such a large voter turn-out during this election. It's had more to do with limited finances, and the bureaucracy of the federal government and state legislatures trying to set forth/implement changes to improve the system, and some of the regulations they passed (that are not uniform among all the states) that caused some of the problems.

    Do improvements need to be made? Yes. But voters are "disenfranchised" in every election for various and legitimate reasons. And I'd say a vast majority of the time it's due to their own fault, not some Republican conspiracy.

    But it's so much easier though for guys like Jesse and Johnny to throw out generalized and ubsubstantiated charges. They had a recount here in Ohio. It was a bi-partisan effort that went through every voter district. And guess what? Both the Democratic and Republican representatives involved in coordinating and monitoring that recount, not someone standing on the "outside" like Jesse screaming "FIRE!", stated that all went very well. And Kerry still lost by somewhere around 114,000 votes.

    Dems need to quit whining and get over it. It's nothing but sour grapes, and doesn't project well on Kerry and the Democratic Party.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    CELEBRATION TIME RBA's Avatar
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    Re: John Kerry and his dead horse

    The recount in Ohio was a sham. If you believe letting the manufacture of the machine tamper with them to get the right "recount" than I really don't have any more to say.

  7. #7
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: John Kerry and his dead horse

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBloodedAmerican
    The recount in Ohio was a sham. If you believe letting the manufacture of the machine tamper with them to get the right "recount" than I really don't have any more to say.
    I doubt you'll not have any more to say.

    You ever try listening to yourself? It's simply laughable.

    You live in Ohio RBA?

    More unfounded and ridiculous accusations by the left.

    Just throw something out there and see if it sticks.

    Give solid evidence it was a sham when even the Dems involved in the recount/verification process approved of the final tally and the procedure used?

    You can't.
    Last edited by GAC; 01-17-2005 at 09:19 PM.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    Re: John Kerry and his dead horse

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBloodedAmerican
    The recount in Ohio was a sham. If you believe letting the manufacture of the machine tamper with them to get the right "recount" than I really don't have any more to say.
    Oh now that is just beautiful. Evidence, please. I know this is a message board, but cmon and please give us something credible, besides just whatever makes you feel better about your position.
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    CELEBRATION TIME RBA's Avatar
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    Re: John Kerry and his dead horse

    Quote Originally Posted by KYRedsFan
    Oh now that is just beautiful. Evidence, please. I know this is a message board, but cmon and please give us something credible, besides just whatever makes you feel better about your position.
    Evidence? You say. You can't tell me this is the first time you ever heard of this?

    I didn't start this topic, obviously it's the same old pick every little quote from a Democrat and bash the hell of it and see if I can piss off the liberals on this board type of post.

  10. #10
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: John Kerry and his dead horse

    Quote Originally Posted by KYRedsFan
    Oh now that is just beautiful. Evidence, please. I know this is a message board, but cmon and please give us something credible, besides just whatever makes you feel better about your position.
    Here's a link to the congressional report
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  11. #11
    CELEBRATION TIME RBA's Avatar
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    Re: John Kerry and his dead horse

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro
    Here's a link to the congressional report
    Fox News, Rush, CNN, MSNBC (exception Olbermann) and the rest of the right wing main stream media didn't report it so it doesn't exist.

    the allegations against triad were first raised by Green Party candidate David Cobb, who testified at a hearing held in Columbus, Ohio by Rep. John Conyers of the House Judiciary Committee. In his testimony, Cobb stated:


    Mr. Chairman, though our time is limited, I must bring to the committee's attention the most recent and perhaps most troubling incident that was related to my campaign on Sunday, December 12, about a shocking event that occurred last Friday, December 10.

    A representative from Triad Systems came into a county board of elections office un-announced. He said he was just stopping by to see if they had any questions about the up-coming recount. He then headed into the back room where the Triad supplied Tabulator (a card reader and older PC with custom software) is kept. He told them there was a problem and the system had a bad battery and had "lost all of its data". He then took the computer apart and started swapping parts in and out of it and another "spare" tower type PC also in the room. He may have had spare parts in his coat as one of the BOE people moved it and remarked as to how very heavy it was. He finally re-assembled everything and said it was working but to not turn it off.

    He then asked which precinct would be counted for the 3% recount test, and the one which had been selected as it had the right number of votes, was relayed to him. He then went back and did something else to the tabulator computer.

    The Triad Systems representative suggested that since the hand count had to match the machine count exactly, and since it would be hard to memorize the several numbers which would be needed to get the count to come out exactly right, that they should post this series of numbers on the wall where they would not be noticed by observers. He suggested making them look like employee information or something similar. The people doing the hand count could then just report these numbers no matter what the actual count of the ballots revealed. This would then "match" the tabulator report for this precinct exactly. The numbers were apparently the final certified counts for the selected precinct.

    Triad is contracted to do much of the elections work in this county and elsewhere in Ohio. This included programming the candidates into the tabulator, and coming up with the rotation of candidates in the various precincts (that is, the order of which candidate is first changes between precincts). They also have a technician in the office on election night to actually run the tabulator itself.

    Triad also supplies the network computers on which all of the voter registration information and processing is kept for the county.

    It was unusual for the computers to be taken apart. At least one member of the Board of Elections was told the tabulator was in pieces when he called to check on the office.

    The source of this report believes that the Triad representative was "making the rounds" of visiting other counties also before the recount. This person also stated they would not pass on the suggestion of the "posted" hidden totals, and would refuse to go along with it if it were suggested by the others in the office at the time.

    The source of this information believes they could lose their job if they come forward.

    The source of this information is named Sherole Eaton, Hocking County deputy director of elections. She has since written and signed an affidavit describing her experience with the Triad representative, the text of which is here:



    Go to Original

    AFFIDAVIT
    December 13, 2004
    Sherole Eaton
    Re: General Election 2004 - Hocking County, TriAd
    Dell Computer about 14 years old - No tower

    On Friday, December 10 2004, Michael from TriAd called in the AM to inform us that he would be in our office in the PM on the same day. I asked him why he was visiting us. He said, "to check out your tabulator, computer, and that the attorneys will be asking some tricky questions and he wanted to go over some of the questions they maybe ask." He also added that there would be no charge for this service.

    He arrived at about 12:30PM. I hung his coat up and it was very heavy. I made a comment about it being so heavy. He, Lisa Schwartze and I chatted for a few minutes. He proceeded to go to the room where our computer and tabulation machine is kept. I followed him into the room. I had my back to him when he turned the computer on. He stated that the computer was not coming up. I did see some commands at the lower left hand of the screen but no menu. He said that the battery in the computer was dead and that the stored information was gone. He said that he could put a patch on it and fix it. My main concern was - what if this happened when we were ready to do the recount. He proceeded to take the computer apart and call his offices to get information to input into our computer. Our computer is fourteen years old and as far as I know had always worked in the past. I asked him if the older computer, that is in the same room. could be used for the recount. I don't remember exactly what he said but I did relay to him that the computer was old and a spare. At some point he asked if he could take the spare computer apart and I said "yes". He took both computers apart. I don't remember seeing any tools and he asked Sue Wallace, Clerk, for a screwdriver. She got it for him. At this point I was frustrated about the computer not performing and feared that it wouldn't work for the recount. I called Gerald Robinette, board chairman, to inform him regarding the computer problem and asked him if we could have Tri Ad come to our offices to run the program and tabulator for the recount. Gerald talked on the phone with Michael and Michael assured Gerald that he could fix our computer. He worked on the computer until about 3:00 PM and then asked me which precinct and the number of the precinct we were going to count. I told him, Good Hope 1 # 17. He went back into the tabulation room. Shortly after that he (illegible) stated that the computer was ready for the recount and told us not to turn the computer off so it would charge up.

    Before Lisa ran the tests, Michael said to turn the computer off. Lisa said, " I thought you said we weren't supposed to turn it off." He said turn it off and right back on and it should come up. It did come up and Lisa ran the tests. Michael gave us instructions on how to explain the rotarien, what the tests mean, etc. No advice on how to handle the attorneys but to have our Prosecuting Attorney at the recount to answer any of their legal questions. He said not to turn the computer off until after the recount.

    He advised Lisa and I on how to post a "cheat sheet" on the wall so that only the board members and staff would know about it and and what the codes meant so the count would come out perfect and we wouldn't have to do a full hand recount of the county. He left about 5:00 PM.

    My faith in Tri Ad and the Xenia staff has been nothing but good. The realization that this company and staff would do anything to dishonor or disrupt the voting process is distressing to me and hard to believe. I'm being completely objective about the above statements and the reason I'm bringing this forward is to, hopefully, rule out any wrongdoing.

    Further buttressing Eaton’s claim is an addendum to a previous affidavit filed by Evelyn Roberson who, you may recall, was involved in the Greene County recount action that was summarily shut down by Ohio Secretary of State Blackwell. Her addendum reads as follows:

    <B>Addendum to Declaration of Evelyn Roberson dated December 12, 2004
    Re: Incidents of December 10, 2004



    This is to add to the approximately 1 :15 p.m. portion of the visit with the Deputy Director of Elections Lyn McCoy with respect to the following comment:
    "She said they would have their computer technician check over their computers on Monday in case they has been tampered with."


    the addition is that Lyn McCoy also mentioned to me at the same time that her computer technician was with Triad.

    I declare under penalty of perjury the forgoing is true and correct.

    Dated: December 14, 2004 Evelyn Roberson</B>


    Original versions of these documents should be available later on Wednesday on the website of Rep. Conyers.

    Conyers, upon hearing these allegations, sent a letter to both the FBI Special Agent in Charge in Ohio and the Hocking County Prosecutor. The text of that letter is as follows:

    December 15, 2004

    As part of the Democratic staff's investigation into irregularities in the 2004 election and following up on a lead provided to me by Green Party Presidential Candidate, David Cobb, I have learned that Sherole Eaton, a Deputy Director of Board of Elections in Hocking County, Ohio, has first hand knowledge of inappropriate and likely illegal election tampering in the Ohio presidential election in violation of federal and state law.

    I have information that similar actions of this nature may be occurring in other counties in Ohio. I am therefore asking that you immediately investigate this alleged misconduct and that, among other things, you consider the immediate impoundment of election machinery to prevent any further tampering.

    On December 13, my staff met with Ms. Eaton who explained to them that last Friday, December 10, Michael Barbian, Jr., a representative of Triad GSI unilaterally sought and obtained access to the voting machinery and records in Hocking County, Ohio, modified the computer tabulator, learned which precinct was planned to be the subject of the initial test recount and made further alterations based on that information, and advised the election officials how to manipulate the machinery so that the preliminary hand recount matched the machine count. Ms. Eaton first relayed this information to Green Party representatives, and then completed, signed and notarized an affidavit describing this course of events, a copy of which is attached.

    The Triad official sought access to the voting machinery based on the apparent pretext that he wanted to review some "legal questions" the officials might receive as part of the recount process. At several times during this visit, Mr. Barbian telephoned into Triad's offices to obtain programming information relating to the machinery and the precinct in question. I have subsequently learned that Triad officials have been, or are in the process of intervening in several other counties in Ohio - Greene and Monroe, and perhaps others (see attached).

    There are several important considerations you should be aware of with respect to this matter. First, this course of conduct would appear to violate several provisions of federal law, in addition to the constitutional guarantees of equal protection and due process. 42 U.S.C. §1973 provides for criminal penalties against any person who, in any election for federal office, "knowingly and willfully deprives, defrauds, or attempts to defraud the residents of a State of a fair and impartially conducted election process, by . . . the procurement, casting, or tabulation of ballots that are known by the person to be materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent under the laws of the State in which the election is held." 42 U.S.C. § 1974 also requires the retention and preservation, for a period of twenty-two months from the date of a federal election, of all voting records and papers and makes it a felony for any person to "willfully steal, destroy, conceal, mutilate, or alter" any such record. Further, any tampering with ballots and/or election machinery would violate the constitutional rights of all citizens to vote and have their votes properly counted, as guaranteed by the Equal Protection and Due Process Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

    Second, the course of conduct would also appear to violate several provisions of Ohio law. No less than 4 provisions of the Ohio Revised Code make it a felony to tamper with or destroy election records or machines.1 Clearly, modifying election equipment in order to make sure that the hand count matches the machine count would appear to fall within these proscriptions.

    Moreover, bringing in Triad officials into other Ohio Counties would also appear to violate Ohio Revised Code § 3505.32 which provides that during a period of official canvassing, all interaction with ballots must be "in the presence of all of the members of the board and any other persons who are entitled to witness the official canvass," given that last Friday, the Ohio Secretary of State has issued orders to the effect that election officials are to treat all election materials as if they were in a period of canvassing,2 and that "Teams of one Democrat and one Republican must be present with ballots at all times of processing."

    Third, it is important to recognize that the companies implicated in the wrongdoing, Triad and its affiliates, are the leading suppliers of voting machines involving the counting of paper ballots and punch cards in the critical states of Ohio and Florida. Triad is controlled by the Rapp family, and its founder Tod A. Rapp has been a consistent contributor to Republican causes.4 A Triad affiliate, Psephos corporation, supplied the notorious butterfly ballot used in Palm Beach County, Florida, in the 2000 presidential election.

    Sincerely,

    John Conyers, Jr.

  12. #12
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: John Kerry and his dead horse

    The lines are only one issue, and not the main one IMO.

    The bigger issue to me is the security and procedures regarding the electronic voting machines. I'm not saying that the vote total was altered, but it very clear that the security of the machines/system is poor and the laws regarding the handling of them post election were not adhered to by local officials in numerous voting districts. While I don't believe there is proof of fraud, there is certainly vast evidence of negligence, intentional or otherwise, and it is important that the proper reforms be made and that the laws are followed in future elections.
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  13. #13
    Member SandyD's Avatar
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    Re: John Kerry and his dead horse

    This debate is exactly why Kerry cannot be the one to lead the charge for election reform.

  14. #14
    CELEBRATION TIME RBA's Avatar
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    Re: John Kerry and his dead horse

    I noticed you don't live in Florida, but that didn't stop you from becoming an "expert" on the vote there in 2000.

  15. #15
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    Re: John Kerry and his dead horse

    I am a GOP voter who moved something like 4 months before the election. I attempted to register twice in my new state, and both time was denied due to clerical reasons. Had to call my old state and tell them I moved. Then was able to register in my new state. Oh yeah, my new state has a Dem governor. It's obviously his fault, and it's obviously a conspiracy. Please, we can't move on from 2004, cause many can't move on from 2000. Keep trying fellas.
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