San Francisco considers fee on grocery bags

[GAC]

Yeah *shudder* that's me.

God knows we're a bunch of whack jobs.

I never said or implied you were. And I don't lump all environmentalists together either. But I, and many, many Americans express strong doubts and apprehensions about some environmentalist groups and organizations attempt to do in this country. Lets face it... some have earned their reputation well. And there are extremes in all ideologies.

[westofyou]

And I don't lump all environmentalists together either.

Of course you don't....just those that are lawmakers from the west coast right?

And there are extremes in all ideologies.

Really?

I haven't noticed.

[MWM]

Thank god for the environmentalists. Without them, half the population would be dead from emphysema. I know I wouldn't have made it through childhood with the asthma I've had my entire life.

[GAC]

Of course you don't....just those that are lawmakers from the west coast right?

And who, in Caifornia, influences/lobbys those lawmakers? Didn't the article state it was based on a study by environmentalists? I look at it more as a way for lawmakers to make more money/extract taxes.

Really?

I haven't noticed.

Respectfully, I 'd really like you to show me specific examples where I have? And not simply a statement that I made that expresses doubt on an environmental study out of California.

Yes, as MWM, just stated, there have been some great advances environmentally in this country in the last couple of decades....cleaner and fuel efficient cars, cleaner air standards, emphasis on recycling, etc, etc.

But as I stated earlier, there are extremists in the environmentalist movement that try to take things way too far, and impose their beliefs on others. And if you don't want to avow that, then that is fine woy.

The Kyoto Protocol, IMO, is one exmaple of that.

[westofyou]

Didn't the article state it was based on a study by environmentalists?

And what is so scary about the word enviromentalist?

Do you see exploding cars and protestors when you hear the word "enviromentalists?"

I don't, I see my friends, neighbors and other folks around my area.

As for a study about the enviroment and the impact of items on the enviroment whom would you suggest they have do the the study?

Besides enviromentalists?

Grocery clerks?

[MWM]

Who's supposed to study the environment if it isn't the environmentalists?

[MWM]

One thing I've never understood about the right is their resistence to environmentalism. I would think that environmental issues would be something that wouldn't cut across ideological lines. Frankly, besides a few of the extremists (eco-terrorists), I don't see the downside to almost all the environmental causes.

[GAC]

And what is so scary about the word enviromentalist?

First off, I never said there was. But there are those within the environmental movement who, because of their agenda and some of the extreme stances/positions they have taken on the past, have done a very good job themselves of promoting that "scare" (apprehension) among the masses in this country. They themselves use "fear" to promote their agenda in certain areas.There are also those groups that like to hide behind the word "environmentalist", and to somehow express anything counter to their agenda means one is anti-environment or doesn't care.

I'm the training auditor within my department. One of the programs that we instituted years ago, and which I am in charge of training, is implementing, and educating, the employees to the company's environmental standards, policies, and practices. Which I wholehearedly agree with.

There's a thing called balance woy. And I acknowledge that environmentalists have done a great job at raising awareness in this country. Something that needed to be done. But there are many that take things to greater extremes, and IMO, do greater harm.

I don't, I see my friends, neighbors and other folks around my area.

Were they (the average citizen) asked or involved in this decision by lawmakers to impose this fee? I doubt it.

As for a study about the enviroment and the impact of items on the enviroment whom would you suggest they have do the the study?

Besides enviromentalists?

Grocery clerks?

I've just come to express doubt at some of these enviromnmental studies. And I don't think my "fears" or apprehensions are unfounded.

[TeamCasey]

:MandJ: Gac and I posted at the same time and it looked dumb out of sequence. I'm going to go have a beer now.

[westofyou]

First off, I never said there was. But there are those within the environmental movement who, because of their agenda and some of the extreme stances/positions they have taken on the past, have done a very good job themselves of promoting that "scare" (apprehension) among the masses in this country. They themselves use "fear" to promote their agenda in certain areas.There are also those groups that like to hide behind the word "environmentalist", and to somehow express anything counter to their agenda means one is anti-environment or doesn't care.

If you substitute the word enviromentalist with "Christian" or "Conservative" I bet many here would take offense at it.

Others would shake their heads in agreement.

[GAC]

One thing I've never understood about the right is their resistence to environmentalism.

The "right" (whoever that is) is not resistent to environmentalism. What we are resistent to are the extremes some within that movement want go to, and that as an industrialized nation, it would/could be devastating to us economically.

I believe that corporations/industry need to be held accountable and also cooperative in providing a safer environment. I'm all for clean air, water, and better stewardship/management of our natural resources. And compared to 30-40 years ago, great strides and improvements have been made implemented. And more needs to be done.

But what happens when some want standards that economically hurt a country or various regions, and cause people to lose their jobs because of some of the restrictive regulations/stipulations that some environmental groups want to see enacted?

I'm against extremism, not environmentalism. Examples?...

Have you ever read the Kyoto Protocol Mike? It would have a very devasting effect on this country, and other countries as well, economically speaking if it were fully implemented. But because there are those that oppose this agreement, they are "painted" as anti-environment.

Have you ever read Gore's environmentalist book "Earth In The Balance"? I have (several years ago)... some scary stuff in there. Is this the mind/thought process that dictates the "new" environmental movement? If so, then we all need to be somewhat apprehensive and guarded.

I am very wary of such environmental organizations as the Sierra Club. Yes, they do some good and beneficial things. But when I hear John Muir, co-founder of the Sierra Club: "I have precious little sympathy for the selfish propriety of civilized man, and if a war of races should occur between the wild beasts and Lord Man, I would be tempted to sympathize with the bears."... and refers to humanity as a "cancer" on the earth, then don't you think that is a little extreme?

Environmentalist philosophy has a religious dimension to it (again see Gore's book). A popular idea among environmentalists is writer James Lovelock's "Gaia hypothesis" -- the idea that the Earth is a living entity with a super-consciousness of its own, of which we are all a part (Gaia was, of course, the ancient Greek goddess of the Earth.) Native American religions with their nature worship are popular as well.

I believe in good stewardship... but not worship of the environment.

I think people have a justification at being somewhat wary of certain segments of the environmentalist movement and their ideology, and such organizations a Green Peace, Earth Liberation Front, and some others.

But I am not against a balanced and rational approach to environmentalism.

[GAC]

If you substitute the word enviromentalist with "Christian" or "Conservative" I bet many here would take offense at it.

Others would shake their heads in agreement.

I wholeheartedly agree. Yet respectfully, that has never stopped you in the past from showing ridicule for religion on here now has it?

This is obvioulsy a "touch" subject for you, at which you do take offense very easily... so I'll graciously exit it.

Maybe the mods need to add "environment" to the new rules along with politics and religion.

[westofyou]

I wholeheartedly agree. Yet respectfully, that has never stopped you in the past from showing ridicule for religion on here now has it?

This is obvioulsy a "touch" subject for you, at which you do take offense very easily... so I'll graciously exit it.

Maybe the mods need to add "environment" to the new rules along with politics and religion.

It's not a "touch" subject for me GAC, I just take offense at your obvious disdain for anything "California"... I find it funny and somewhat mis-aimed.

Here's a couple of quotes that make me think.

Nature never says one thing and wisdom another.

Unknown

We could have saved the Earth but we were too damned cheap.

Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.