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Thread: Questions/Discussion About the New Non-Baseball Forum Rules & Policies

  1. #31
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    Re: Questions/Discussion About the New Non-Baseball Forum Rules & Policies

    Boy you people are thin skinned. I was asked my opininion and I gave it. I don't know what Chip's response has do to with my statement. Yes its your board, yes you have all the power. Yes if I don't like it I can leave. But I'm not talking about legal rights, I'm talking about what I think is appropriate. And I suggest that you tip the balence in favor of spirited discussion even at the risk of hurt feelings, a suggestion which you are free to ignore (or free to get all defensive about).

    As far as my knowledge of the first amendment, I have a passing knowledge, having been a practicing attorney for more than a few years and having litigated a few cases involving this issue, one of which made it to the New York Court of Appeals. And when I feel it is appropriate to commence an action on my behalf, I usually don't go looking for an attorney, I do it myself, and I'm usually successful. But what does that have to do with the issue at hand. Nuff said?

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  3. #32
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: Questions/Discussion About the New Non-Baseball Forum Rules & Policies

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutaman
    Boy you people are thin skinned. I was asked my opininion and I gave it. I don't know what Chip's response has do to with my statement. Yes its your board, yes you have all the power. Yes if I don't like it I can leave. But I'm not talking about legal rights, I'm talking about what I think is appropriate. And I suggest that you tip the balence in favor of spirited discussion even at the risk of hurt feelings, a suggestion which you are free to ignore (or free to get all defensive about).

    As far as my knowledge of the first amendment, I have a passing knowledge, having been a practicing attorney for more than a few years and having litigated a few cases involving this issue, one of which made it to the New York Court of Appeals. And when I feel it is appropriate to commence an action on my behalf, I usually don't go looking for an attorney, I do it myself, and I'm usually successful. But what does that have to do with the issue at hand. Nuff said?

    surely then you understand the hillarity of comparing "stirring up trouble" on a message board with MLK and the civil rights movement.

    Fight the Power!
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  4. #33
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Questions/Discussion About the New Non-Baseball Forum Rules & Policies

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutaman
    As long as I stay within the rules, I have the right to stir up trouble. In fact stirring up trouble is one of the great rights, and indeed benfits, of a democracy.
    If George Washington didn't stir up trouble, we'd all be English. If Martin Luther King didn't stir up trouble, some people might not be able to vote.

    That being said, since you asked, the rules give unlimited power to the moderators. There is no recourse for appeal. What if a moderator sanctions someone because he disagrees with what that person is saying, not because what is being said is inappropriate. Life is hard, free speach is hard, but I'd rather see a few overly sensitive people have their feelings hurt, than see power abused. Just one man's opinion.
    What power? It's a message board!

    one of probably a million. all with different rules/codes. Redszone started because a bunch or reds fans on the enquirer board couldn't communicate with each other because of trolls, flamers and people being offensive. I got to the point that if a kid was just trying to read a little about his favorite team, he'd be exposed to some of the crudest language that anyone with even a moderate sence of decency wouldn't utter to another person's face.

    but it was tolerated/ignored there.

    And a couple of guys decided enough was enough. I think their aim was small at first. just a place to dicuss the reds... no trolls allowed.

    and then something happened. Redszone took off. The most knowledgeable posters in the country come here. Fans of teams from all over, both leagues. And a few trolls come to. for the most part the "community" deals with them without violating the rules. Some are dealt with by the Mods or admins.

    And the baseball discussion resumed stronger by the absence of back-biting trolls seeking only to stir up trouble for troubles sake. Great debates raged over SABR, Griffey's health, The minor leagues and how hot AD is (for creek and the teamsters... personally i think my wife is hotter.)

    And then someone said how a bout a forum for us that has nothing to do with baseball? So it was written.... blada blada.

    But the same code/rules apply. but all of a sudden, those rules applied to the newbies only. We had gorown accustomed to each other, not necessarily like a family, but rather an extended family. "I can yell and demean you because we "know" each other!!!"

    but the rules apply to all. this isn't a rally for freedom of speech. This is a club. with rules. we all get snippy at times. Over the last week everytime princeton posted something, i felt like baiting him. I have no idea why. BTW he's still wrong.

    but the rules apply to all. the reason the admins are asking for mods is that they cannot do it themselves. our schedules, our lives require that we leave the computer every so often. the more mods, the more likely one is on, keeping an eye, but not looking for trouble.

    and why anyone would have a problem with this, and would still continue to post here is beyond my ability to understand. There are other outlets for venom, other boards that actually welcome flame wars. Feel free to leave at any time. your positive contributions will be missed, but the negative ones will cause the rest of the board to overlook them.

    rant over.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  5. #34
    Member TeamCasey's Avatar
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    Re: Questions/Discussion About the New Non-Baseball Forum Rules & Policies

    I think TRF nailed it as best as anyone can. (Good job). Redszone originated from the anarchy of cincy.com. It has a history. It's always wanted to be a place that anyone could enjoy at any age. It's remarkably succeeded.

    We try to keep it clean. Does it get risque at times. Yes .... but within reason. Do people fight amongst themselves? Yes .... but within reason. The guys aren't trying to paint the joint lily white. They're simply trying to find "within reason". I think they try to be fair and objective. Do people tread out on a limb now and then .... yes. Normally a flag on the play or a head's up to the individual smooths things over.

    I don't think people got too out of hand in their discussion of pretty controversial topics, but a rift certainly occurred. It probably could have gotten alot worse if allowed to fester.

    They aren't squashing discussion. We just need to find what's "within reason" for this board. I think that's fair. I also think the guys will apply the new rules within reason.

    I applaud them for giving us a non-baseball forum. It keeps both the fun, friendly, silly stuff and the debate stuff off the baseball side.

  6. #35
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Questions/Discussion About the New Non-Baseball Forum Rules & Policies

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutaman
    As far as my knowledge of the first amendment, I have a passing knowledge, having been a practicing attorney for more than a few years and having litigated a few cases involving this issue, one of which made it to the New York Court of Appeals. And when I feel it is appropriate to commence an action on my behalf, I usually don't go looking for an attorney, I do it myself, and I'm usually successful. But what does that have to do with the issue at hand. Nuff said?
    Well, as they say, practice makes perfect.
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  7. #36
    Queen Christine
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    Re: Questions/Discussion About the New Non-Baseball Forum Rules & Policies

    I think that Boss and GIK and Chip and Coug and Zom all do a fantastic job.
    This board is great. Keep up the good work boys.
    Just remember the golden rule...Good Pitching Always Beats Good Hitting~ Jason Anderson(Columbus Clippers)
    :coffey: Your my boy Blue!

  8. #37
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Questions/Discussion About the New Non-Baseball Forum Rules & Policies

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R
    Actually, starting trouble is against the rules as well. As for the moderators having unlimited power, that's probably because this is a moderated board. If this wasn't a moderated board, we'd have no need for the moderators, no? This board was started because discussions from either an unmoderated board or a moderated board where the moderator(s) were asleep at the switch got out of hand. People wanted a place to go where they wouldn't be inundated by trolls and could participate in a reasonable discussion without the risk of getting flamed. That's why we have the rules here. If you have concerns about the moderaters, who would you want policing the board?

    I would think if a moderator sanctioned someone because of a difference in opinions, they wouldn't be a moderator for very long after that. Since you have been a participant here for such a long while, though, I can see why you would ask that question. I'm all for freedom of speech too. But I think you misunderstand the 1st amendment. It doesn't give people unlimited freedom of speech. All it says is that the government shall not make any laws abridging freedom of speech. It doesn't say anything about private organizations - which RedsZone is one - making any rules against freedom of speech. It's the same way for schools. You can't go to school with obscenities on your T-Shirt.

    If you are such a free speech advocate, perhaps this isn't the place for you. You may be happier on an unmoderated board. However, everyone who joins this board has to abide by the rules set down here. If you don't you will suffer the consequences. You are also more than welcome to hire an attorney and sue RedsZone for abridging your freedom of speech rights but I don't think you will be too successful finding one.

    Very good Chip. I couldn't agree more. But what I want to know (since I know you).... who is your ghost writer? :allovrjr:
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  9. #38
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Questions/Discussion About the New Non-Baseball Forum Rules & Policies

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutaman
    As far as my knowledge of the first amendment, I have a passing knowledge, having been a practicing attorney for more than a few years and having litigated a few cases involving this issue, one of which made it to the New York Court of Appeals. And when I feel it is appropriate to commence an action on my behalf, I usually don't go looking for an attorney, I do it myself, and I'm usually successful. But what does that have to do with the issue at hand. Nuff said?
    Certainly then you should be able to make substantial contributions to the non-baseball side of the forum that brings growth, development and stimulated enlightenment to all of us. Though I am not one to be in awe of doctors or lawyers as professionals, I do like them as people.

    The moderators and administrators do quite well considering the various age groups along with the different value and belief systems and personal constitutions that those ranges bring to the forum.

    Escalation in commitment becomes a problem for some posters when the board allows the discourse and exchange to get too rigid or stimulated as in “spirited discussion” some of us regress to adolescent defensiveness when one does not agree with us, then there are many others here that can communicate very well such as yourself under various challenges.

    How would you suggest that the moderators effectively deal with those that are having a “bad hair day” or are just trained and conditioned to respond with non-constructive remarks repeatedly?

  10. #39
    Member CougarQuest's Avatar
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    Re: Questions/Discussion About the New Non-Baseball Forum Rules & Policies

    My hearts still all a-twitter over the fact we now have a BOX!!
    Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

  11. #40
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    Re: Questions/Discussion About the New Non-Baseball Forum Rules & Policies

    Quote Originally Posted by SpringfieldFan
    How would you suggest that the moderators effectively deal with those that are having a “bad hair day” or are just trained and conditioned to respond with non-constructive remarks repeatedly?
    Good question. Obviously the moderators should have wide discretion to enforce the new sanctions. My concern is that discretion should, to a limited extent, be reviewable. One who is sanctioned should have the right to appeal to the Boss or to a higher athority. If not, the danger exists that a less than professional moderator will sanction someone because of a personality dispute or because he doesn't agree with their politics, ect. Moderator's discretion should be broad but it shouldn't be unlimited.

  12. #41
    SERP Emeritus paintmered's Avatar
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    Re: Questions/Discussion About the New Non-Baseball Forum Rules & Policies

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutaman
    Good question. Obviously the moderators should have wide discretion to enforce the new sanctions. My concern is that discretion should, to a limited extent, be reviewable. One who is sanctioned should have the right to appeal to the Boss or to a higher athority. If not, the danger exists that a less than professional moderator will sanction someone because of a personality dispute or because he doesn't agree with their politics, ect. Moderator's discretion should be broad but it shouldn't be unlimited.

    So you are going to appeal breaking a rule to the guy that made the rules? If we could do that, it would reduce the credibility of the rules in the first place. The rules are well defined, the consequences are well defined. This shouldn't be a problem.
    What if this wasn't a rhetorical question?

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  13. #42
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Questions/Discussion About the New Non-Baseball Forum Rules & Policies

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutaman
    My concern is that discretion should, to a limited extent, be reviewable. One who is sanctioned should have the right to appeal to the Boss or to a higher athority. If not, the danger exists that a less than professional moderator will sanction someone because of a personality dispute or because he doesn't agree with their politics, ect. Moderator's discretion should be broad but it shouldn't be unlimited.
    I believe from my experience here that the review and flexibility that you refer to does exist on this forum. Without being specific because I don't want to inflame an old and closed issue that has been put to rest long ago, I know that some of us as a group have appealed to the owners, and I as an individual appealed to the owners and have had very reasonable responses and follow up. The moderators also shared in the discussions in another situation to resolve the contentions at one time.

    There is a difference when it is written word vs. an act/violation of rules or standards committed verbally or physically that might or might not have been visible or audible to others to witness in normal life situations. Here the writings in an author’s own hand are electronically recorded and are readily available within a post from start to finish, which leaves little to doubt if one truly is violating their privileges here. A simple review through the reading of the thread and exchanges will disclose the offensive party or the party that is initiating the inflammatory and provocative behavior.

    Though I am not saying that you are wrong selectively, as a type of halo effect can exist naturally between certain posters and moderators who have a long-standing relationship and have enjoyed one another’s written interaction. Which an example might be seen when one is defending himself/herself from what they inferred or perceived as an undue offensive personal attack by an offending or offensive party. Sometimes, but rarely, the one responding might get chastised or slapped on the wrist by the social group and/or moderator, which can seem a bit unfair or unjust when the one that fired the first shot, can be clearly seen in the writings, and it would seem to me that, that party should be the one getting chastised or rebuked by the moderators or social group over the responder first, and they do review such incidents. As with any social groups there is always some degree of "office politics".
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 01-30-2005 at 02:09 AM.

  14. #43
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    Re: Questions/Discussion About the New Non-Baseball Forum Rules & Policies

    Quote Originally Posted by paintmered
    So you are going to appeal breaking a rule to the guy that made the rules?
    Its a basic procedure in administrative law.

  15. #44
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Questions/Discussion About the New Non-Baseball Forum Rules & Policies

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF
    What power? It's a message board!

    one of probably a million. all with different rules/codes. Redszone started because a bunch or reds fans on the enquirer board couldn't communicate with each other because of trolls, flamers and people being offensive. I got to the point that if a kid was just trying to read a little about his favorite team, he'd be exposed to some of the crudest language that anyone with even a moderate sence of decency wouldn't utter to another person's face.

    but it was tolerated/ignored there.

    And a couple of guys decided enough was enough. I think their aim was small at first. just a place to dicuss the reds... no trolls allowed.

    and then something happened. Redszone took off. The most knowledgeable posters in the country come here. Fans of teams from all over, both leagues. And a few trolls come to. for the most part the "community" deals with them without violating the rules. Some are dealt with by the Mods or admins.

    And the baseball discussion resumed stronger by the absence of back-biting trolls seeking only to stir up trouble for troubles sake. Great debates raged over SABR, Griffey's health, The minor leagues and how hot AD is (for creek and the teamsters... personally i think my wife is hotter.)

    And then someone said how a bout a forum for us that has nothing to do with baseball? So it was written.... blada blada.

    But the same code/rules apply. but all of a sudden, those rules applied to the newbies only. We had gorown accustomed to each other, not necessarily like a family, but rather an extended family. "I can yell and demean you because we "know" each other!!!"

    but the rules apply to all. this isn't a rally for freedom of speech. This is a club. with rules. we all get snippy at times. Over the last week everytime princeton posted something, i felt like baiting him. I have no idea why. BTW he's still wrong.

    but the rules apply to all. the reason the admins are asking for mods is that they cannot do it themselves. our schedules, our lives require that we leave the computer every so often. the more mods, the more likely one is on, keeping an eye, but not looking for trouble.

    and why anyone would have a problem with this, and would still continue to post here is beyond my ability to understand. There are other outlets for venom, other boards that actually welcome flame wars. Feel free to leave at any time. your positive contributions will be missed, but the negative ones will cause the rest of the board to overlook them.

    rant over.
    Well said.
    Incidentally, I believe that we have quite a few lawyers or people attending law school on this board. None of them have summarized the need for a moderator quite so well IMO.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  16. #45
    Member CougarQuest's Avatar
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    Re: Questions/Discussion About the New Non-Baseball Forum Rules & Policies

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutaman
    Its a basic procedure in administrative law.
    And a lawyer should know that doesn't apply here.
    Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.


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