Turn Off Ads?
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 32

Thread: Whither America?

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    The Bush Leagues
    Posts
    8,829

    Whither America?

    Got this second hand from a blog. Its by Micheal Lind.

    Discuss!

    In a second inaugural address tinged with evangelical zeal, George W. Bush declared: "Today, America speaks anew to the peoples of the world." The peoples of the world, however, do not seem to be listening. A new world order is indeed emerging - but its architecture is being drafted in Asia and Europe, at meetings to which Americans have not been invited.
    Consider Asean Plus Three (APT), which unites the member countries of the Association of Southeast Asia Nations with China, Japan and South Korea. This group has the potential to be the world's largest trade bloc, dwarfing the European Union and North American Free Trade Association. The deepening ties of the APT member states represent a major diplomatic defeat for the US, which hoped to use the Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation forum to limit the growth of Asian economic regionalism at American expense. In the same way, recent moves by South American countries to bolster an economic community represent a clear rejection of US aims to dominate a western-hemisphere free trade zone.

    Consider, as well, the EU's rapid progress toward military independence. American protests failed to prevent the EU establishing its own military planning agency, independent of the Nato alliance (and thus of Washington). Europe is building up its own rapid reaction force. And despite US resistance, the EU is developing Galileo, its own satellite network, which will break the monopoly of the US global positioning satellite system.

    The participation of China in Europe's Galileo project has alarmed the US military. But China shares an interest with other aspiring space powers in preventing American control of space for military and commercial uses. Even while collaborating with Europe on Galileo, China is partnering Brazil to launch satellites. And in an unprecedented move, China recently agreed to host Russian forces for joint Russo-Chinese military exercises.

    The US is being sidelined even in the area that Mr Bush identified in last week's address as America's mission: the promotion of democracy and human rights. The EU has devoted far more resources to consolidating democracy in post-communist Europe than has the US. By contrast, under Mr Bush, the US hypocritically uses the promotion of democracy as the rationale for campaigns against states it opposes for strategic reasons. Washington denounces tyranny in Iran but tolerates it in Pakistan. In Iraq, the goal of democratisation was invoked only after the invasion, which was justified earlier by claims that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and was collaborating with al-Qaeda.

    Nor is American democracy a shining example to mankind. The present one-party rule in the US has been produced in part by the artificial redrawing of political districts to favour Republicans, reinforcing the domination of money in American politics. America's judges -- many of whom will be appointed by Mr Bush -- increasingly behave as partisan political activists in black robes. America's antiquated winner-take-all electoral system has been abandoned by most other democracies for more inclusive versions of proportional representation.

    In other areas of global moral and institutional reform, the US today is a follower rather than a leader. Human rights? Europe has banned the death penalty and torture, while the US is a leading practitioner of execution. Under Mr Bush, the US has constructed an international military gulag in which the torture of suspects has frequently occurred. The international rule of law? For generations, promoting international law in collaboration with other nations was a US goal. But the neoconservatives who dominate Washington today mock the very idea of international law. The next US attorney general will be the White House counsel who scorned the Geneva Conventions as obsolete.

    A decade ago, American triumphalists mocked those who argued that the world was becoming multipolar, rather than unipolar. Where was the evidence of balancing against the US, they asked. Today the evidence of foreign co-operation to reduce American primacy is everywhere -- from the increasing importance of regional trade blocs that exclude the US to international space projects and military exercises in which the US is conspicuous by its absence.

    It is true that the US remains the only country capable of projecting military power throughout the world. But unipolarity in the military sphere, narrowly defined, is not preventing the rapid development of multipolarity in the geopolitical and economic arenas -- far from it. And the other great powers are content to let the US waste blood and treasure on its doomed attempt to recreate the post-first world war British imperium in the Middle East.

    That the rest of the world is building institutions and alliances that shut out the US should come as no surprise. The view that American leaders can be trusted to use a monopoly of military and economic power for the good of humanity has never been widely shared outside of the US. The trend toward multipolarity has probably been accelerated by the truculent unilateralism of the Bush administration, whose motto seems to be that of the Hollywood mogul: "Include me out."

    In recent memory, nothing could be done without the US. Today, however, practically all new international institution-building of any long-term importance in global diplomacy and trade occurs without American participation.

    In 1998 Madeleine Albright, then US secretary of state, said of the U.S.: "We are the indispensable nation." By backfiring, the unilateralism of Mr Bush has proven her wrong. The US, it turns out, is a dispensable nation.

    Europe, China, Russia, Latin America and other regions and nations are quietly taking measures whose effect if not sole purpose will be to cut America down to size.

    Ironically, the US, having won the cold war, is adopting the strategy that led the Soviet Union to lose it: hoping that raw military power will be sufficient to intimidate other great powers alienated by its belligerence. To compound the irony, these other great powers are drafting the blueprints for new international institutions and alliances. That is what the US did during and after the second world war.

    But that was a different America, led by wise and constructive statesmen like Dean Acheson, the secretary of state who wrote of being "present at the creation." The bullying approach of the Bush administration has ensured that the US will not be invited to take part in designing the international architecture of Europe and Asia in the 21st century. This time, the US is absent at the creation.
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #2
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    20,742

    Re: Whither America?

    1. I'm thrilled that Europe is building up its own military. I hope they accelerate getting the US out, so we don't have to waste resources with Serbia, etc. Europe is more than capable of solving it's own problems, so I'm glad.

    2. I could care less if Aisa forms some kind of Nafta/free trade thing. The coorporations are going to exploit the slave labor in Aisa regardless. It's not going to effect American labor at all. In fact, it could potentially HELP the US if they walled us out of their club AND our government responded in kind.

    3. Also, don't really care if Europe and China are getting into satellites. Again, if it makes other countries less dependent on us, that is good.

    4. I agree that eventually a USSR-like collapse event is going to happen to this country. Maybe not as severe, but eventually countries will stop lending us the money to try to manipulate the other countries of the world. The sooner the well dries up, the better (smaller deficit). I think it would be GREAT if Japaneese bond investors found something better to do with their money (instead of lending it to the US government).

  4. #3
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Bellefontaine, Ohio
    Posts
    26,576

    Re: Whither America?

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD
    1. I'm thrilled that Europe is building up its own military. I hope they accelerate getting the US out, so we don't have to waste resources with Serbia, etc. Europe is more than capable of solving it's own problems, so I'm glad.

    2. I could care less if Aisa forms some kind of Nafta/free trade thing. The coorporations are going to exploit the slave labor in Aisa regardless. It's not going to effect American labor at all. In fact, it could potentially HELP the US if they walled us out of their club AND our government responded in kind.

    3. Also, don't really care if Europe and China are getting into satellites. Again, if it makes other countries less dependent on us, that is good.

    4. I agree that eventually a USSR-like collapse event is going to happen to this country. Maybe not as severe, but eventually countries will stop lending us the money to try to manipulate the other countries of the world. The sooner the well dries up, the better (smaller deficit). I think it would be GREAT if Japaneese bond investors found something better to do with their money (instead of lending it to the US government).

    AMEN brother!
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  5. #4
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    13,774

    Re: Whither America?

    It's not going to effect American labor at all. In fact, it could potentially HELP the US if they walled us out of their club AND our government responded in kind.
    I don't understand how it could help the US to alienate the largest market (not to mention the cheapest source of labor) in the world.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  6. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Huntington WV
    Posts
    622

    Re: Whither America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo
    Got this second hand from a blog. Its by Micheal Lind.

    Discuss!

    In a second inaugural address tinged with evangelical zeal, George W. Bush declared: "Today, America speaks anew to the peoples of the world." The peoples of the world, however, do not seem to be listening. A new world order is indeed emerging - but its architecture is being drafted in Asia and Europe, at meetings to which Americans have not been invited.
    Consider Asean Plus Three (APT), which unites the member countries of the Association of Southeast Asia Nations with China, Japan and South Korea. This group has the potential to be the world's largest trade bloc, dwarfing the European Union and North American Free Trade Association. The deepening ties of the APT member states represent a major diplomatic defeat for the US, which hoped to use the Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation forum to limit the growth of Asian economic regionalism at American expense. In the same way, recent moves by South American countries to bolster an economic community represent a clear rejection of US aims to dominate a western-hemisphere free trade zone.

    Consider, as well, the EU's rapid progress toward military independence. American protests failed to prevent the EU establishing its own military planning agency, independent of the Nato alliance (and thus of Washington). Europe is building up its own rapid reaction force. And despite US resistance, the EU is developing Galileo, its own satellite network, which will break the monopoly of the US global positioning satellite system.

    The participation of China in Europe's Galileo project has alarmed the US military. But China shares an interest with other aspiring space powers in preventing American control of space for military and commercial uses. Even while collaborating with Europe on Galileo, China is partnering Brazil to launch satellites. And in an unprecedented move, China recently agreed to host Russian forces for joint Russo-Chinese military exercises.

    The US is being sidelined even in the area that Mr Bush identified in last week's address as America's mission: the promotion of democracy and human rights. The EU has devoted far more resources to consolidating democracy in post-communist Europe than has the US. By contrast, under Mr Bush, the US hypocritically uses the promotion of democracy as the rationale for campaigns against states it opposes for strategic reasons. Washington denounces tyranny in Iran but tolerates it in Pakistan. In Iraq, the goal of democratisation was invoked only after the invasion, which was justified earlier by claims that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and was collaborating with al-Qaeda.

    Nor is American democracy a shining example to mankind. The present one-party rule in the US has been produced in part by the artificial redrawing of political districts to favour Republicans, reinforcing the domination of money in American politics. America's judges -- many of whom will be appointed by Mr Bush -- increasingly behave as partisan political activists in black robes. America's antiquated winner-take-all electoral system has been abandoned by most other democracies for more inclusive versions of proportional representation.

    In other areas of global moral and institutional reform, the US today is a follower rather than a leader. Human rights? Europe has banned the death penalty and torture, while the US is a leading practitioner of execution. Under Mr Bush, the US has constructed an international military gulag in which the torture of suspects has frequently occurred. The international rule of law? For generations, promoting international law in collaboration with other nations was a US goal. But the neoconservatives who dominate Washington today mock the very idea of international law. The next US attorney general will be the White House counsel who scorned the Geneva Conventions as obsolete.

    A decade ago, American triumphalists mocked those who argued that the world was becoming multipolar, rather than unipolar. Where was the evidence of balancing against the US, they asked. Today the evidence of foreign co-operation to reduce American primacy is everywhere -- from the increasing importance of regional trade blocs that exclude the US to international space projects and military exercises in which the US is conspicuous by its absence.

    It is true that the US remains the only country capable of projecting military power throughout the world. But unipolarity in the military sphere, narrowly defined, is not preventing the rapid development of multipolarity in the geopolitical and economic arenas -- far from it. And the other great powers are content to let the US waste blood and treasure on its doomed attempt to recreate the post-first world war British imperium in the Middle East.

    That the rest of the world is building institutions and alliances that shut out the US should come as no surprise. The view that American leaders can be trusted to use a monopoly of military and economic power for the good of humanity has never been widely shared outside of the US. The trend toward multipolarity has probably been accelerated by the truculent unilateralism of the Bush administration, whose motto seems to be that of the Hollywood mogul: "Include me out."

    In recent memory, nothing could be done without the US. Today, however, practically all new international institution-building of any long-term importance in global diplomacy and trade occurs without American participation.

    In 1998 Madeleine Albright, then US secretary of state, said of the U.S.: "We are the indispensable nation." By backfiring, the unilateralism of Mr Bush has proven her wrong. The US, it turns out, is a dispensable nation.

    Europe, China, Russia, Latin America and other regions and nations are quietly taking measures whose effect if not sole purpose will be to cut America down to size.

    Ironically, the US, having won the cold war, is adopting the strategy that led the Soviet Union to lose it: hoping that raw military power will be sufficient to intimidate other great powers alienated by its belligerence. To compound the irony, these other great powers are drafting the blueprints for new international institutions and alliances. That is what the US did during and after the second world war.

    But that was a different America, led by wise and constructive statesmen like Dean Acheson, the secretary of state who wrote of being "present at the creation." The bullying approach of the Bush administration has ensured that the US will not be invited to take part in designing the international architecture of Europe and Asia in the 21st century. This time, the US is absent at the creation.
    Where do we go from here?

  7. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    The Bush Leagues
    Posts
    8,829

    Re: Whither America?

    It would be nice to think that we could retreat from the world and still thrive. Has that worked in your life? Because it hasn't worked in mine.
    Last edited by Rojo; 01-27-2005 at 06:51 PM.
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

  8. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Huntington WV
    Posts
    622

    Re: Whither America?

    It would be nice to think that we could retreat from the world and still thrive. Has that worked your life? Because it hasn't worked in mine.
    I support open borders and free and voluntary cooperation with all. But, does the author of this piece have a course of action in mind?

  9. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    The Bush Leagues
    Posts
    8,829

    Re: Whither America?

    Where do we go from here?
    Depends. We were at our most powerful when were using the government to build up the middle class, clean up the environment and educate our workforce. There's a good chance that as the country slides downhill, the upper class will get richer and preach more privatization, lower taxes, etc... We're basically on an Argentina Arc - suspect democracy, low-valued currency, militarism.

    On the other hand, the right-wing moment might be passing. Lots of folks "get it" and are starting to ask the right questions.

    Me, I'd fix the voting process in the country, to quote JFK, "Its not enough that a woman is virtuous. She must appear virtuous."

    Second, I'd get a handle on the healthcare mess. We expect GM and Boeing to compete with foreign companies that don't have to pick up their worker's healthcare costs. No wonder we're a "service economy".

    Third, figure out the energy thing - sooner rather than later. And make the solution not involve roadside bombs.
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

  10. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Huntington WV
    Posts
    622

    Re: Whither America?

    Depends. We were at our most powerful when were using the government to build up the middle class, clean up the environment and educate our workforce. There's a good chance that as the country slides downhill, the upper class will get richer and preach more privatization, lower taxes, etc... We're basically on an Argentina Arc - suspect democracy, low-valued currency, militarism.
    First, let me say privatization has been very successful in many areas and in many countries, and that taxes on individuals are too high and taxes on corporations are too low.

    But, as far as your second argument I agree with you. The rest of the country is seeing what WV has known for years, about elections. And we have become too obsessed with military power. Donít get me started on currency.

    However, I do find it interesting that progressives fought tooth and nail against Libertarians/Friedman on stable money and militarism, and now support it.

    Second, I'd get a handle on the healthcare mess. We expect GM and Boeing to compete with foreign companies that don't have to pick up their worker's healthcare costs. No wonder we're a "service economy".
    Which is exactly why I do not support it. It will benefit corporate America but Middle America will pay about the same and more.

    Third, figure out the energy thing - sooner rather than later. And make the solution not involve roadside bombs.
    Agreed

    But, these are domestic issues. The essay concerned foreign policy. Our country was at is strongest and had its greatest identity when it opened its borders and stayed away from foreign affairs.

  11. #10
    Puffy 3:16 Puffy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Panama City Beach
    Posts
    13,761

    Re: Whither America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo
    Depends. We were at our most powerful when were using the government to build up the middle class, clean up the environment and educate our workforce. There's a good chance that as the country slides downhill, the upper class will get richer and preach more privatization, lower taxes, etc... We're basically on an Argentina Arc - suspect democracy, low-valued currency, militarism.

    On the other hand, the right-wing moment might be passing. Lots of folks "get it" and are starting to ask the right questions.

    Me, I'd fix the voting process in the country, to quote JFK, "Its not enough that a woman is virtuous. She must appear virtuous."

    Second, I'd get a handle on the healthcare mess. We expect GM and Boeing to compete with foreign companies that don't have to pick up their worker's healthcare costs. No wonder we're a "service economy".

    Third, figure out the energy thing - sooner rather than later. And make the solution not involve roadside bombs.
    Thats just an absolutely fantastic post.
    "I came here to kick ass and chew bubble gum... and I'm all out of bubble gum."
    - - Rowdy Roddy Piper

    "It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong. I am not a big man"
    - - Fletch

  12. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    The Bush Leagues
    Posts
    8,829

    Re: Whither America?

    First, let me say privatization has been very successful in many areas and in many countries
    What's been successful is zigging when one needs to zig and zagging when one needs to zag. An absolutist ideology is cumbersome. It was the downfall for one superpower and is starting weigh heavy on the other one.

    The cold war didn't end that long ago. I hope we weren't too quick to pronounce a winner.
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

  13. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Huntington WV
    Posts
    622

    Re: Whither America?

    What's been successful is zigging when one needs to zig and zagging when one needs to zag. An absolutist ideology is cumbersome. It was the downfall for one superpower and is starting weigh heavy on the other one.
    Are you advocating nationalization of private industries throughout the U.S.?

    And, even I donít agree with privatization of everything or shock changes, but in most areas it has been successful and far more efficient than government.

  14. #13
    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Oakwood, OH
    Posts
    11,564

    Re: Whither America?

    In other areas of global moral and institutional reform, the US today is a follower rather than a leader. Human rights? Europe has banned the death penalty and torture, while the US is a leading practitioner of execution. Under Mr Bush, the US has constructed an international military gulag in which the torture of suspects has frequently occurred. The international rule of law? For generations, promoting international law in collaboration with other nations was a US goal. But the neoconservatives who dominate Washington today mock the very idea of international law. The next US attorney general will be the White House counsel who scorned the Geneva Conventions as obsolete.
    I must admit that I stopped after reading this paragraph. This article (up to this point) is ANOTHER ATTACK on Republicans and probably written by ANOTHER PERSON who cannot get over the fact that his party does not have the White House or Congress. Oh yes, that evil W won again... it's the end of the world as we know it!

    Neoconservatives who dominate Washington? Why doesn't Mr. Lind just go ahead and say "those Nazis"? And the token attack on Mr. Gonzales... Mr. Lind only wishes he has done 1/2 of what Mr. Gonzales has done for this country.

    If you don't like what you have here... get the heck out. Or get the majority of voters in this country to agree with you. Give college students free gifts, whatever. If I read on, I would guess that Lind would make references to the great Pres. Clinton (impeached?) and probably some of his cabinet.

    Nope, I don't buy Mr. Lind's propaganda. Start buidling that shelter under your house. W is here for 4 more! It's the end of the world as we know it...

    :RedinDC:
    Small market fan... always hoping, but never expecting.

  15. #14
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    The Bush Leagues
    Posts
    8,829

    Re: Whither America?

    Or, crazy idea, you could address his actual argument.

    Server space is such a terrible thing to waste.
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

  16. #15
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    41,621

    Re: Whither America?

    Neoconservatives who dominate Washington?
    Just like the one's that Christine Whitman talks about in her new book.

    Christine Todd Whitman, the former New Jersey governor who was President Bush's first administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency, is violating the omerta of Bush alumni with a memoir that touts the importance of moderates to the future of the Republican Party and flays Bush and his team for ignoring the country's middle.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2005Jan1.html


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25