Reds trade Dustin Moseley for Ramon Ortiz

[Redmachine2003]

I leave that to you. You're always pleased with the Reds moves amidst 4 consecutive losing seasons, so I think it's more appropriate that you ignore the record and just sit back and enjoy the game. I'll stick to inquiring as to why we've spent nearly $7 million the past 2 years bringing in fodder pitchers with 5+ERAs, and terrible peripherals, as our primary offseason pitching acquisitions (Lidle/Ortiz).

It is all part of baseball. Every team has it cycles some just longer than others. I fallow the Reds every day even if they are out of it because I love baseball and like to fallow young players like Dunn, Kearns, WMP and others to see how they develop and I also feel you can't judge a trade like this one until next year Ortiz could do great or could flop. Mosely could do the same. That is one thing great about baseball good stats don't always = wins and you can't make the playoffs unless you have enough wins. I seen alot of pitchers over the years that had good era's and losing records and some bad era's with winning records. Some pitches pitch just good enough to win and other pitch just good enough to lose. But to spend 7-10 mill dollars on pitchers who are no sure thing to win Like Clement, Perez, Ect is also crazy, But the market is like that because of the weak pitching market this year.

[letsgojunior]

Yessir, there are 30 GM jobs in MLB and at least 30 folks on here who think that it's child play and they could do so much better

Yeah, surrre

Since when did expressing frustration with a trade equate with arrogance?

You were constantly making similar remarks during the Bowden era (and justifiably so). Why is it not allowed now?

[Puffy]

I think the scary thing is that some of the people who didn't like the Lidle acquisition don't feel too bad about this one.

Listen, Ramon Ortiz has stuff, which Lidle did not. I am so sick of the Reds throwing out 11 guys (5 starters and 6 relievers) who are all stuff challenged and who throw the same stuff challenged crap.

Ortiz has a fastball. Ortiz can strike a hitter out when he needs do. Ortiz is not a groundball pitcher on a team with bad infield defense.

I shed no tears over losing Mosely. Ortiz might not work out. But I would rather O'Brien go after pitchers with stuff rather than 85 mph sinker ball pitchers and 85 mph slop throwers. The rotation needs some diversity, this adds a bit of that. Hudson adds a bit of that.

Do I think Ortiz is a number 1 starter? No way. But he is better than Hancock and that makes me happy. He is better than Harang and that makes me happy.

Now, if Dan O would just go after Gil Meche and make him the closer, that would really make me happy.

[gm]

Since when did expressing frustration with a trade equate with arrogance?

You were constantly making similar remarks during the Bowden era (and justifiably so). Why is it not allowed now?

Wrong. I never stated or implied that I could do a better job than Bowden. Neither have I called any fellow poster "arrogant" (at least, not since the days of Richard Hand...) I do point out that there's a culture of sports fans who cross the line regularly from "active rooting" to "show him the door!" If you want to take the Philadelphia road to caustic complaining, I have no means to prevent you. Just don't expect me to join the pile.

[SteelSD]

Every pitcher isn't going to turn into Corey Lidle for the Reds. I mean, if people are going to use the Lidle deal that burned the Reds as a reason to NEVER make deals like that then, I'm sorry, the Reds are going nowhere. The Reds have been burned with guys like Lidle and Haynes. They have also been rewarded with guys like Dessens, Wilson and Harnish. And the best part is that Ortiz had ONE down year. If people are willing to trash him and pass up on him because of one down year after multiple good years then you know what? You would have given up on Freddy Garcia. Garcia had a couple of good to great years, had one down year and people were dumping on him like they're dumping on Ortiz. Then Garcia came alive and had a good year last year and people were clamoring for the Reds and others to get him. And Garcia is 30 years old. Ortiz is 31. Garcia is the perfect example of why you don't give up on a player after he has one down year.

Ramon Ortiz has never had a "great" year. In fact, he's never had a season that's approached Cory Lidle's peak year(s) (yes, plural) in terms of effectiveness. Nor is Freddy Garcia anything near a comp for Ortiz. You can clearly see that in the K/9IP rate as well as Ortiz' OPS Against versus Garcia.

Ortiz' composite .800 OPS Against over the last two seasons would have ranked him 70th out of 86 MLB ERA qualifiers in 2004. Paul Wilson and Cory Lidle ranked 54th and 56th respectively in that department, and we're not even factoring in the concept that Ortiz produced much better numbers out of the pen than he did as a SP in 2004. In fact, Ortiz' SP numbers from 2004 combined with his 2003 data would have probably resulted in a ranking somewhere around 80th in 2004. There are only 86 pitchers on that list.

In short, there is no hope that Ramon Ortiz will be anything better than the chaff we had to deal with in the rotation last season. Angels management is most likely giving themselves (and each other) backslaps for being able to pawn him off on someone before they had to non-tender the guy.

The sad fact of the matter is that Cory Lidle was a better bet to help the Reds going into 2004 than Ramon Ortiz in 2005. And we lost at least one resource for the opportunity to give Ortiz a lot more money than we signed Lidle for last year while giving up nothing. We may lose two resources if Jimenez is non-tendered because of the what the Reds will be paying Ortiz next season.

This would have been a stinker of a FA signing. But it's an even more putrid considering the resource cost to the Reds. And it's pretty much confirmed, to me, that Dan O'Brien has nary a clue about talent evaluation.

[Phhhl]

Sporting News SCOUTING REPORT: RHP Ramon Ortiz's slight build requires him to use maximum effort to get his fastball to 94 mph. This causes him to lose his mechanics, which flattens out his slider, his out pitch. When Ortiz is on, his stuff is among the best in the A.L., but he needs to concentrate more.--Dong Miller

CBS Sportsline SCOUTING REPORT Ramon Ortiz, RHP

"Little Pedro's got big stuff. It will be very interesting to see what they do with him during the playoffs, whether he pitches second or fourth. It's a wait-and-see with him. You know his stuff is going to be there, but in the playoffs, you cannot put the ball over the middle of the plate like in the normal season. Giving up a two-run homer in the sixth inning sometimes is no big deal in the normal season. You can't do that in playoffs -- and he did it a lot in the season. Outside of (closer Troy) Percival, that's the best stuff on the staff."

[Chip R]

I disagree with this very premise. Some wanted #1, all wanted #2, #3 has so many meanings that's it's really not an accomplishment. Even so, the three aren't mutually exclusive which is what is implied by the notion that this trade accomplished all three so we should be happy. I think people wanted them to spend more money, but spend it in proportion to just how good the said pitcher is. Spending $4MM+ on Oritz is not what anyone who wanted the Reds to spend more money and get better pitching had in mind. And I also don't think Ortiz really qualifies as a "better starter."

Some people didn't want the Reds to spend more money? I don't know where you have been hanging out at but here on RedsZone, the people who would have been satisfied with a lower payroll or the same payroll either didn't post much or at all. I realize that a high payroll and a winning record don't necessarily go hand in hand. But I think a lot of people like to see the Reds actually going out and spending a little money on a pitcher instead of calling a kid up out of AAA or going with the status quo (read: cheap) or going with a guy like Jeriome Robertson. Ortiz may be a bust but these people at least feel the Reds are trying to put a major league staff out there. Not everyone who buys tickets to the games analyzes a trade like this on how good a pitcher Ortiz is. They just are happy that the Reds actually are paying another starting pitcher over the minimum. DanO could have brought in Chan Ho Park and they would have been delirious because he's making a ton of money and the Reds actually did something. Bringing in Park doesn't improve the pitching, however. Bringing in Ortiz does. You cannot tell me he's not a better pitcher than Claussen or Hancock or possibly Harang. Tell you the truth, I think Claussen's going to end up being the odd man out. And that may not be a bad thing. Maybe he should stay away from Gullett until DanO gets a new pitching coach. I think Hancock pitched well enough last year to be considered the #4 guy before they signed Ortiz. Now maybe he and Claussen fight it out for the 5th spot. Claussen's got the advantage of being a lefty but Hancock has actually performed well against some good teams and DanO traded for him.

I'm curious, though, on which starter the Reds could have traded for who would have cost $4M and only had to give up a minor league pitcher. It would most likely have to be a trade since the only free agents who want to come here are relievers who live close by. As I said before, I would have liked to have seen DanO not re-sign Wilson and use his money and Ortiz' money to go after a Clement or a Perez. But there's no guarantee either would have wanted to come here. They could go anywhere, so why here? We could have offered them $8M but most other teams could not only match that offer but offer more. In reality, there aren't many good starters out there making $4M who we could have had for a pitcher like Moseley.

[M2]

Every pitcher isn't going to turn into Corey Lidle for the Reds. I mean, if people are going to use the Lidle deal that burned the Reds as a reason to NEVER make deals like that then, I'm sorry, the Reds are going nowhere. The Reds have been burned with guys like Lidle and Haynes. They have also been rewarded with guys like Dessens, Wilson and Harnish.

Stormy covered a lot of this, but the reason why Lidle and Haynes come up is because the Reds are making the same mistake they made with those two pitchers -- paying too much money for guys who've put up plenty of warning signs that they're not worth the cash.

So, yes, they should NEVER make deals like this.

They were rewarded with guys like Dessens, Haynes (2002) and Harnisch (I refuse to include Wilson in that group because I'm not going to call a guy with a below average ERA and well under 200 IP a reward), but they paid a grand total of $1.275M to acquire all three of those guys. Those are examples of successful bottom fishing. I'd have no problem if the Reds bottom-fished Ortiz. It's this business of paying multimillions to pitchers who wind up being no better than guys you can find for $500K that irks me. Guys like this you grab when they're cheap, see if you can wring something out of them and then let 'em go when they start to cost you money. Then, if need be, you go back to the mud flats you found 'em in to get another.

Some pitchers are going to be non-tendered in a week (personally I think the Angels would have been nuts to offer arbitration to Ortiz and pay him around $4M to be their #6 starter). Others are going submit arbitration figures that make their cash-strapped employers gag. The Reds blew $8M on Wilson and Ortiz before these markets even opened. To re-use an analogy, it's like sitting down to play poker and going all in on a pair of sixes within your first few hands.

BTW, take another look at Ortiz's career stats. He got only one good year, not only one bad year.

[Cedric]

This trade still makes absolutely no sense to me. I've been trying to figure it out since it went down and still can't. Giving 4+ plus million to Ortiz alone is a stretch, tossing in a pitcher that has an actual history of not getting injured and has shown decent numbers makes zero sense.
The Angels were NOT going to tender Ramon Ortiz, basically we made this trade to avoid a bidding war that probably wasn't going to even happen? Is Ramon Ortiz that good that you start worrying about who you are going to bid against and flip a prospect with some semblance of a future?

[gm]

Sporting News SCOUTING REPORT: RHP Ramon Ortiz's slight build requires him to use maximum effort to get his fastball to 94 mph. This causes him to lose his mechanics, which flattens out his slider, his out pitch. When Ortiz is on, his stuff is among the best in the A.L., but he needs to concentrate more.

This analysis reminded me of Acevedo. Good stuff; lacks focus.

[NC Reds]

The Reds won't have a quality pitching staff until we start developing our own starters in the minors. It irks me that a 22 yr old with some success at AAA/AA is being moved for a 32 yr old that was going to be on the market soon.

Will Jimenez be tendered a contract now? Did the Reds give up Moseley and Jimenez for a starter the Angels did not want?

[jrdunnit]

i agree totally.(with chip).first look at the hot commodities.milton had almost 5 era with 43 hrs.clement has been inconsistent,pavano...lets see if he can do it again.national league knows nothing on ortiz and just read where he gave rocket his second loss last season with 6 ip o er at houston.russ ortiz wasnt a true #1 and pedro is not pedro of old so maybe this will work.
i would like to know why some on this board cant stand hancock.based on their performance last year , i would see hancock as #5 with claussen in l-ville unless he has a super spring.
they say one way to see how good someone is , is to see how they do when facing a team twice in a short time period.hancock had 2 starts against stl and 2 against cubs like that and all 4 were quality starts.he was 3-0 with a no decision(blown save) in those 4.claussen needs to work on not being at 70 pitches in 4th inning.
the guys on baseball tonite used to joke about reds elmer dessens not getting respect because of his name.....elmer
i think if josh hancocks name was jose henahua people might think "wow he may be decent"

[tom browning]

Bad trade.
We traded a young pitcher who might blossom into a good mlb player for a guy whos had one good year and hes 31. He was moved to the bullpen because he basically sucks. His last year as a starter he had an era of 5.20 in 32 starts.

Hes had an era below 4.00 ONCE in his entire career. His lifetime era is 4.60
His wins record is inflated by playing on good teams. His best year was the year they went to the series.

Hes garbage. Typical Reds garbage starter. He was cut losse by the angels who offered him a 100k buyout rather then have him on their roster anymore.
I dont care whether or not Moseley pans out, cause thats not the point. The point is, he has a better chance of being a good mlb pitcher then the bust we got in return.

[tom browning]

This trade still makes absolutely no sense to me. I've been trying to figure it out since it went down and still can't. Giving 4+ plus million to Ortiz alone is a stretch, tossing in a pitcher that has an actual history of not getting injured and has shown decent numbers makes zero sense.
The Angels were NOT going to tender Ramon Ortiz, basically we made this trade to avoid a bidding war that probably wasn't going to even happen? Is Ramon Ortiz that good that you start worrying about who you are going to bid against and flip a prospect with some semblance of a future?

Exactly. This was a STUPID trade. I am now convinced OB has got to go.

[Buckeye33]

The Angels were NOT going to tender Ramon Ortiz, basically we made this trade to avoid a bidding war that probably wasn't going to even happen?

A lot of people keep saying the the Angels wouldn't have tender him (no one knows for sure) which would have made him a FA. And everyone just assumes the Reds would have had no problem signing him for 2.5 million/year. That would not have happened. No, there wouldn't have been a bidding war, but someone would have paid Ortiz 4+ million/year to pitch for them. Which means the Reds would not have him as a pitcher.

Starting pitchers don't make 2 million dollars per year anymore. If you can post an ERA under 5 in the AL, you're going to make 3-5 million/year. It's stupid, but it's the truth.

Now, for eveyone who says the Reds are dumb to trade a 22 year old righty who throws 89-91, with 1 decent half a season at AAA for a ML pitcher who has at least got some decent stuff, who would you have rather spent 4 million/year on?? And please be realistic.