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Thread: Reds trade Dustin Moseley for Ramon Ortiz

  1. #151
    Puffy's Daddy Red Leader's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade Dustin Moseley for Ramon Ortiz

    Ok, let me break this down as to why I think its a bad trade and its not because talent given does not equal talent received.

    Ramon Ortiz was not going to be offered arbitration by the Angels, meaning that in 6 days, he would become a free agent.

    Because of this we gave up a prospect (Moseley) for nothing.

    We could have waited and kept Moseley and signed Ortiz after he had become a free agent.

    As others have stated, this probably means we won't offer arbitration to D'Lo.

    The trade was a dumb idea to start with, in my opinion. Why not wait, keep your prospect and sign Ortiz to the 2 year contract you want him to sign when he becomes a free agent. With what they've done, they've basically painted themselves in a corner (again!) by not having a choice BUT to sign Ortiz to an affordable deal for two years, or go to arbitration with him and spend WAY more money than he is worth.

    On D'Lo, they can now either trade him BEFORE December 20th with teams knowing that they HAVE to dump him for salary reasons, or not offer arbitration to him and lose him for nothing. BAD MANAGEMENT.

    The Reds keep setting themselves up in these no win situations, and for a small market team, you just can't do that if you expect to improve.
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  3. #152
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    Re: Reds trade Dustin Moseley for Ramon Ortiz

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    Just because Jimmy Haynes had a 15 win season that was due primarily to outstanding run support in many of his starts doesn't mean that you can just throw anyone out there and get 15 wins out of them. So we have an example of a lucky pitcher, does he have to become a byword for the remaining history of Redszone?

    I may be misinterpreting MWM's remarks, but I think he's implying that there is a tangible correlation between the two: Namely, Ramon Ortiz was the beneficiary of a 16 Win season as recently as 2 years ago, despite posting a putrid 5.20ERA, as a direct result of exceptional run support. Sure, Jimmy Haynes has become the personification of the deceptive 15 win season, which leads to extensions and salary increase, for Reds' fans. We are facing a similar situation here. Without the benefit of one of the AL's better offenses, Ramon Ortiz is likely a 15 game loser in 2003. The fact that he followed that up with an even more abysmal performance as a starter in 2004, though again his W/L record was helped some by a potent Angels offense, is a bad portent. There is every likelihood that we are revisiting a Haynes or Lidle signing here, with the difference being the relative impact of the money spent, and the fact that this time it cost us a premiere trading chip.

    Again, if you take a look at Ortiz's splits as a Starter vs Reliever in 2004, then compile them with his 2003 numbers as a Starter... a very unpleasant picture emerges of a guy who gets knocked around at a 5.30+ERA, High OPSA/BAA clip, whose K numbers are on a steady decline, even as his WHIP and hittability escalate. We'd need some dramatic reversal in his trends for this to work out as anything more than a passable #5 starter, or middle BP help. That would be ok, except we could have found that for less cost/risk, and without losing Moseley in the process.

  4. #153
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    Re: Reds trade Dustin Moseley for Ramon Ortiz

    We'll see what else O'Brien does, and I'm glad he's finally acting, but it's hard to like this trade very much.

    Ortiz has had one good year, 2002. Yet, he allowed 40 homers that year. His other years have been very ordinary.

    Moseley always seemed to have a knack for pitching low run games in the minor leagues. I realize that, absent great stuff, that might not translate to the major leagues, but it would have been nice to see him try with the Reds.

    Generally, I'm glad the Reds were willing to trade a minor leaguer to improve the major league team. It's about time they focused on the current major league squad. But not sold on the particular guy they acquired.

  5. #154
    Member Phhhl's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade Dustin Moseley for Ramon Ortiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R
    OK, riddle me this, Batman: What do the Reds draw as opposed to the Cubs, Cards and Astros?
    No, they don't draw as well as the Cubs. But, I do believe they are rolling in cash and are severely shorchanging the fanbase with their frugality. This market draws just about what it has in it's best seasons of all time, and that is a strong baseball market. Where does the front office think the "bump" is going to come from that they keep pleading for? The net worth of the game has grown across the board, and yet this franchise can only afford to spend 10-15 mil more than they did in 1990? Horse bleep! It's there, and some day I truly believe it will come out just how cheap this regime has been.

    The ONLY way to get that extra 400-500,000 people they are looking for is to compete with a St. Louis or a Houston payroll, right about where they should be. They have the cash and they won't do it. There is no reason in the world this deal with Ortiz should preclude them from adding much more this winter, and the millions of people who do support Reds baseball every season shouldn't be content until they do.

  6. #155
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    Re: Reds trade Dustin Moseley for Ramon Ortiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Leader
    Ok, let me break this down as to why I think its a bad trade and its not because talent given does not equal talent received.

    Ramon Ortiz was not going to be offered arbitration by the Angels, meaning that in 6 days, he would become a free agent.

    Because of this we gave up a prospect (Moseley) for nothing.

    We could have waited and kept Moseley and signed Ortiz after he had become a free agent.

    As others have stated, this probably means we won't offer arbitration to D'Lo.

    The trade was a dumb idea to start with, in my opinion. Why not wait, keep your prospect and sign Ortiz to the 2 year contract you want him to sign when he becomes a free agent. With what they've done, they've basically painted themselves in a corner (again!) by not having a choice BUT to sign Ortiz to an affordable deal for two years, or go to arbitration with him and spend WAY more money than he is worth.

    On D'Lo, they can now either trade him BEFORE December 20th with teams knowing that they HAVE to dump him for salary reasons, or not offer arbitration to him and lose him for nothing. BAD MANAGEMENT.

    The Reds keep setting themselves up in these no win situations, and for a small market team, you just can't do that if you expect to improve.
    I disagree that Ortiz was not going to be offered Arb. The Angels were going to trade him for what ever they could get. They knew they could something for him and would not have let him go for nothing. He is a pitcher that has had some success in the bigs and with the freeagent market drying up other teams would have gotten him before the Reds. I think the Angels moved to fast on him. He would have only gotten about 4 mill max in Arb and his Value would have been alot higher in spring training.

  7. #156
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    Re: Reds trade Dustin Moseley for Ramon Ortiz

    We basicly traded a cheap #4 starting pitcher of the future for an expensive #4 starter for today. :dflynn:

    Is it me or is this resemble a trade that Jimbo would pull?

  8. #157
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    Re: Reds trade Dustin Moseley for Ramon Ortiz

    This should make Krusty happy. Is THIS what you've been waiting for?

    Yeah, this just lights up my Christmas. We trade for a guy that would have been non-tendered at this time next week.

    Makes me just want to go out and buy tickets for Reds games next season.
    If you think small, you'll go nowhere in life.

  9. #158
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    Re: Reds trade Dustin Moseley for Ramon Ortiz

    Man, this is one tough crowd on here. At least Dan "Lumberg" O'Brien did something, and showed that he isnt sleeping on the job. Ortiz might have a decent year, let's give him a chance. As it stands now he's our #1. Moseley was a longshot at best. If he turns into Greg Maddox down the road, then we can all complain. For now let's just be glad they've made an attempt to better the team for the 2005 year. I give this trade a C+. I hope it works out to a B+.

  10. #159
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    Re: Reds get Ortiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric
    He is a lock for the rotation. You don't trade pitchers with even slight success at AAA at age 22, for someone that is gonna get non tendered in a week and then not pitch him. This trade makes absolutely zero sense. There isn't a way in hell Anaheim was gonna tender him.
    I agree with 100 percent backing. I think O'Brien was so desperate to do something after coming back from the Winter Meetings empty handed that he had to appease the fans somehow. This just doesn't cut it.
    If you think small, you'll go nowhere in life.

  11. #160
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade Dustin Moseley for Ramon Ortiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Bowden's Ghost
    At least Dan "Lumberg" O'Brien did something, and showed that he isnt sleeping on the job.

    If this is the kind of deal he's going to make, I'd rather he do nothing.


    If the Dunn to Arizone deal was even talked about, he should be fired.

    I'm still shaking my head that Paul Depodesta wasn't even interviewed for the Reds GM position. There are only 30 MLB GM jobs in the entire world, I have a hard time believing that if the job had been offered he (or anyone) would turn down what could be a person's only chance at the big chair.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  12. #161
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade Dustin Moseley for Ramon Ortiz

    The three things fans wanted the Reds to do this offseason were in no particular order
    1. Spend more money
    2. Get better starters
    3. Do something

    All three of those were accomplished with this trade. However people still complain. The reaction here to anything the Reds do reminds me of the "Men On Film" sketch on "In Living Color": "Hated it!" It's almost as much a reflex reaction as breathing or blinking. When word of this trade went down and people figured out it was either Ortiz or Lackey, most thought it would be Lackey because... he is cheaper and the Reds are cheap. But the Reds went for the more expensive guy. In other words they had a choice between spending more money or not spending more money and they chose the former.

    I don't think Ortiz is all that but is he better than Hancock or Harang or Claussen or even Wilson? All he has to be is better than one of them and the rotation is better than it was yesterday.

    Ever since the season ended most believed the Reds would at the most re-sign Wilson and sit on their hands the rest of the offseason except perhaps picking up some bullpen help. Those who believed that were mistaken. They made a trade. It may not be a steal but it was something. And the fans clearly wanted them to do something, anything. They got their wish but now it wasn't good enough.

    I don't think we ripped the Angels off and I don't think they ripped us off. Moseley was a nice pitcher but he wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire in the minors. IIRC, most felt he didn't throw hard enough to be successful in the majors. Perhaps a guy like Ortiz was as good as he was going to fetch.
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  13. #162
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    Re: Reds trade Dustin Moseley for Ramon Ortiz

    Since when do Non injuried Pitchers with a career 10 games above .500 record start becoming non tenders? You have pitchers out there getting 5-10 mill a year and are below .500 pitchers.

  14. #163
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    Re: Reds trade Dustin Moseley for Ramon Ortiz

    Well said Chip.

    I just think it flies in the face of everything Dan O has been saying about the farm and the future.

  15. #164
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade Dustin Moseley for Ramon Ortiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Redmachine2003
    Since when do Non injuried Pitchers with a career 10 games above .500 record start becoming non tenders? You have pitchers out there getting 5-10 mill a year and are below .500 pitchers.

    Because most good General Managers know that W-L record isn't a good indicator on how good a pitcher is.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  16. #165
    Pflugerville, Tx. Barbarossa's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade Dustin Moseley for Ramon Ortiz

    So does this mean it's "Baby Perdo" versus "Daddy Perdo" opening day? :gac:
    "The two most important things in life are good friends and a strong bullpen."
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