obviously, you haven't read the stat line.Originally Posted by redsfanmia
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obviously, you haven't read the stat line.
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Reds land pitching help from Angels
Ortiz won 15 games for '02 Series champs
By the Associated Press
CINCINNATI | The Cincinnati Reds might have added a piece to their 2005 starting rotation Tuesday, acquiring right-hander Ramon Ortiz from the Anaheim Angels in exchange for minor league right-hander Dustin Moseley.
Ortiz, 31, was 5-7 with a 4.43 ERA in 14 starts and 20 relief appearances for the Angels last season.
Before last year, he had made all 123 of his big-league appearances as a starting pitcher. He won at least 13 games each of the previous three years and was 15-9 with a 3.77 ERA in 2002, helping the Angels win the World Series. He has a career record of 59-49 in 157 games.
The Angels declined to exercise the option year of their contract with Ortiz last month, giving him a $100,000 buyout instead of paying him $5.5 million for next year.
Reds general manager Dan O'Brien said the acquisition of Ortiz gives the team's rotation "a step forward in credibility."
"We have been pursuing Mr. Ortiz for months," O'Brien said. "We sensed he might be available at some point. His success has been as a starting pitcher, accumulating 200 innings and putting up double-digit wins for a successive number of years.
"We feel it's a very simple case of putting him back into the role in which he's traditionally been very successful. Obviously, we're committed to doing that."
Moseley, who turns 23 later this month, split time with Double-A Chattanooga and Triple-A Louisville last season, going 5-6 with a 3.86 ERA in 20 starts. He was taken by the Reds as the 34th overall selection in the 2000 amateur draft.
Will trade this space for a #1 starter.
Reds deal for veteran Ortiz
Club ships prospect Moseley to Angels for right-hander
By John Fay
Enquirer staff writer
ORTIZ'S CAREER STATISTICS
A look at Ramon Ortiz's numbers since coming up in 1999.
Year W-L ERA IP H BB SO
1999 2-3 6.52 48.1 50 25 44
2000 8-6 5.09 111.1 96 55 73
2001 13-11 4.36 208.2 223 76 136
2002 15-9 3.77 217.1 188 68 162
2003 16-13 5.20 180.0 209 63 94
2004 5-7 4.43 128.0 139 38 82
The Reds abandoned their build-for-the-future mode Tuesday and made a move with 2005 in mind.
The Reds obtained starting pitcher Ramon Ortiz from the Anaheim Angels for pitching prospect Dustin Moseley.
"To acquire a pitcher of this caliber, who is potentially under our control for another two years, and insert him in our rotation is a step forward in terms of credibility," Reds manager Dan O'Brien said.
Ortiz, a 31-year-old right-hander, is coming off a rough year. He went 5-7 with a 4.43 ERA in 34 games, including 14 starts.
The Reds are hoping 2004 was an aberration. Ortiz put up double-digit numbers in wins from 2001-03 when he was used exclusively as a starter.
The Reds think by returning him to the rotation they can get Ortiz back to that form.
"The most important focus is the role," O'Brien said. "His success has been as a starting pitcher, accumulating 200 innings and putting up double-digit wins for a successive number of years."
His best year was 2002 - the Angels' world championship season - when he went 15-9 with a 3.77 ERA and won a game in both the American League Championship Series and the World Series.
The Angels used him in a swing role last season after he was ineffective as a starter early on.
"We feel it's a very simple case of putting him back into the role in which he's traditionally been successful," O'Brien said. "Obviously, we're committed to doing that."
Reds manager Dave Miley has Ortiz penciled in the No. 2 spot for now.
"If you look at his resume and the numbers he put up going into the '04 season," Miley said, "he goes right up there to the top of the rotation, along with Paul Wilson.
"All the reports I know about him are all definite positives," Miley added.
Ortiz made $3.1 million last season in the first year of a two-year contract. The Angels had a club option for $5.5 million, but they exercised a $100,000 buyout instead.
Ortiz is arbitration-eligible for 2005 and '06.
There's a chance the Angels could have non-tendered him and he would have become a free agent Monday. The Reds conceivably could have signed him then - without giving up Moseley.
Ortiz will make at least $3.5 million next season. So acquiring him means the Reds are going to bump the payroll into the $55 million range or they are going to non-tender D'Angelo Jimenez, who is due to make about $2.5 million.
A decision on Jimenez must be made by Monday.
The Reds are going to get a read on the Austin Kearns-to-third experiment today when Kearns comes to Cincinnati for a workout. If he looks good, the Reds probably will go into spring training with him at third base. That would allow Ryan Freel to play second base, and for Jimenez to be non-tendered.
The Reds have sought Ortiz for some time.
"To tell you the truth, we've been pursuing him for months," O'Brien said. "He was in a swing role last year after starting his whole career. We had a sense he might be available."
The Reds are convinced Ortiz's stuff is as good as it was from 2001-03, when he went 44-33 and averaged 201 innings a year.
"It's the same as it's always been," O'Brien said. "We had multiple scouts look at this player. We still feel he has plus stuff."
One troubling stat: Ortiz gave up a lot of home runs even when he was pitching well. He allowed 40 in 2002. That's not good for a pitcher whose home park is Great American Ball Park.
Moseley, 22, was a first-round pick (34th overall) in 2000. He went 3-2 with a 2.66 ERA at Double-A Chattanooga and 2-4 with a 4.65 ERA at Triple-A Louisville this season.
"As much as we have high regard for Dustin Moseley, the fact of the matter is it will be a couple of years before he emerges on the major-league scene," O'Brien said.
TUNE IN OR DROP IN
The Reds Hot Stove League show will be broadcast tonight live from the Reds' Hall of Fame and Museum. The one-hour show, hosted by Marty Brennaman and Steve Stewart, begins at 6 p.m. and is broadcast on WLW-AM (700). Doors open at 5:30 p.m. Admission is free.
Will trade this space for a #1 starter.
Reds' first move of winter produces starting pitcher
By Marc Lancaster
Post staff reporter
Since the day after the Reds fired Jim Bowden and Bob Boone nearly 17 months ago, virtually all of the club's transactions have been geared toward raking in prospects and getting younger, especially on the pitcher's mound.
Tuesday, in a move general manager Dan O'Brien said was months in the making, the Reds turned their own conventional wisdom around by acquiring veteran starter Ramon Ortiz from the Anaheim Angels for 22-year-old pitching prospect Dustin Moseley.
The trade did two things the Reds didn't seem inclined to do this offseason, adding experience and depth to the starting rotation and increasing the payroll.
Ortiz, 31, joins Paul Wilson at the front end of what was shaping up to be a very youthful rotation, becoming the group's most decorated pitcher in an instant. A member of the Angels' organization since he signed out of his native Dominican Republic in 1995, Ortiz has been a full-time major leaguer the last four seasons.
From 2001-03, Ortiz went 44-33 with a 4.40 ERA, starting 32 games in each of those years. His best season came in 2002, when he went 15-9 with a 3.77 ERA and four complete games as the Angels won the World Series.
Ortiz fell victim to a surplus of pitchers in Anaheim last season and was shunted back and forth from the rotation to the bullpen, making 14 starts and the first 20 relief appearances of his professional career. He went 5-7 with a 4.43 ERA and made it clear on several occasions that he'd rather be elsewhere in the starting rotation.
He'll get his wish with the Reds, who believe the way Ortiz was used in Anaheim last year was the primary factor in the end of the pitcher's three-year string of swallowing innings and racking up wins.
"His success has been as a starting pitcher, accumulating 200 innings and putting up double-digit wins for a successive number of years," said O'Brien. "We just feel it's a very simple case of putting him back in the role where he's traditionally been successful, and obviously we're committed to doing that."
That commitment will cost the Reds some money -- more than they had appeared prepared to spend. Ortiz made nearly $3.3 million last season in the final guaranteed year of a contract signed in March 2002. Last month, the Angels declined his $5.5 million option for 2005.
Both the Reds and Ortiz's agent, Pat Roache, would prefer to avoid going through the divisive salary arbitration process, but both sides clearly see Ortiz as a valuable commodity. One with a new lease on life, at that.
"I talked to him today, and he's very, very happy about the situation," said Roache. "He's very happy about the trade and very much looking forward to coming to Cincinnati."
Roache pointed out that Ortiz's career statistics compare favorably to those of some of this winter's big-ticket pitchers, such as Carl Pavano, Matt Clement and Jaret Wright, even though Ortiz has less service time. Considering the market that has been established for those pitchers so far this offseason, it's likely Ortiz will be among the five highest-salaried Reds for 2005 when he signs.
Because he won't be eligible for free agency until after the 2006 season, though, Ortiz represents a relatively cost-effective option for the Reds, as long as they're willing to shoulder that cost. O'Brien said Tuesday that they are.
"There's no issue at all with the fact that this individual is a significant upgrade in our starting rotation and goes right to the front of the pack, so obviously our focus is on reaching an agreement with he and his representative for next year," said O'Brien. "We've had no dialogue with them on this topic, so I can't give you any indication of how that discussion will go."
O'Brien did, however, discount any notion that acquiring Ortiz will preclude the Reds from following through on their long-stated goal of adding a veteran reliever, or compel the team to cut loose players such as D'Angelo Jimenez or John Riedling strictly for financial reasons. The Reds must make a decision on their arbitration-eligible players by Monday, but O'Brien said keeping all of those players on the roster is definitely a possibility.
"I don't think the presence of Ortiz and whatever agreement we come to contractually is really going to have any bearing at all on any decisions we make regarding other players' status," said O'Brien. "We were prepared to add this individual to our payroll."
With Ortiz and Wilson now leading the rotation, there should be some legitimate competition in spring training for the remaining starting jobs. The four incumbents from last season -- right-handers Aaron Harang, Josh Hancock and Luke Hudson, along with lefty Brandon Claussen -- will now be vying for three slots. Add in the unknown, such as an unexpectedly strong spring by a minor-leaguer or non-roster invitee, and the Reds should have something to keep an eye on when they head to Sarasota two months from now.
Before Tuesday's deal, there was an outside chance Moseley might have been one of those pitchers on the fringe capable of making a push for the majors. A supplemental first-round pick (34th overall) in the 2000 draft, Moseley didn't sign until after that season. In his four years with the Reds organization, Moseley not only put together consistent numbers that included a 3.71 ERA, he also avoided undergoing major surgery -- a rarity for a Reds pitching prospect.
Baseball America rated Moseley the fourth-best prospect in the organization entering 2004, but the Reds didn't feel he could help them quickly enough.
"As much as we have high regard for Dustin Moseley, the fact of the matter is that it will probably be a couple of years before he emerges on the major league scene," said O'Brien.
The Angels don't need immediate help, particularly after signing free-agent starter Paul Byrd on Tuesday and remaining in the mix for Clement. Ortiz simply didn't fit into their picture for 2005, and they were pleased to take Moseley in return.
"We had quite a bit of interest in Ramon Ortiz," Angels general manager Bill Stoneman told reporters in California. "He's still got that live right arm."
The Reds, no doubt, are happy to have it.
Will trade this space for a #1 starter.
Not a bad trade....I'm quite happy actually....Ortiz has showed some ML success and he has more upside than Cory Lidle. A good veteran pitcher. I can see him posting about a 4.15 ERA and like 14 wins.
If true, then I think all of us feel a lot better about the trade. While the quality has not improved, the consequences are surely not as dire as some suspected.
Obviosly you havent read the stat lines of the starting rotation of your Cincinnati Reds.
What about Bob seems to pop into my head: "Babysteps. Babysteps to get better pitching. Baby steps to winning more games. Baby steps to getting more fan support. Baby steps to a higher payroll. Baby steps."
Please tell me they won't compound the mistake by signing him to a deal based on the current market. Please? He also is on the wrong side of thrity unlike those other guys.Roache pointed out that Ortiz's career statistics compare favorably to those of some of this winter's big-ticket pitchers, such as Carl Pavano, Matt Clement and Jaret Wright, even though Ortiz has less service time. Considering the market that has been established for those pitchers so far this offseason, it's likely Ortiz will be among the five highest-salaried Reds for 2005 when he signs.
He is not sure? Bad sign, it sounds to me like Allen or someone else will have the final say."I don't think the presence of Ortiz and whatever agreement we come to contractually is really going to have any bearing at all on any decisions we make regarding other players' status," said O'Brien. "We were prepared to add this individual to our payroll."
And obvioiusly we are gearing up to compete this year. If the Reds do have high regard for Dustin then they REALLY messed up."As much as we have high regard for Dustin Moseley, the fact of the matter is that it will probably be a couple of years before he emerges on the major league scene," said O'Brien.
Pitching 200 innings in a league with the DH is no real accomplishment. It just means he stayed healthy (can you say law of averages) and until last year wasn't horrible enough to be pulled from the rotation. I can't imagine two statistics I am less impressed with than innings and wins.We have been pursuing Mr. Ortiz for months," O'Brien said. "We sensed he might be available at some point. His success has been as a starting pitcher, accumulating 200 innings and putting up double-digit wins for a successive number of years.
One troubling stat: Ortiz gave up a lot of home runs even when he was pitching well. He allowed 40 in 2002. That's not good for a pitcher whose home park is Great American Ball Park.
Ok, had a night to sleep on the deal. One thing that strikes me about the reactions is "it doesn't fit with what the Reds are trying to do." Now, I am not crazy about Ortiz and was one who was excited about Lidle. So, there is at least one person that is skeptical that Ortiz will suddenly be able to keep the ball in the park or from rattling off the walls.
However, I do not think that trading one middling prospect like Moseley goes against the montra of "developing our own pitching." Argue all you want whether or not Ortiz is a good pitcher, but certainly no one really thinks that we should never trade a prospect for a veteran, esp. a suspect prospect. That is putting the FO in the same box folks say they do not want them to get in. Honestly, they got about what you would expect trading Moseley straight up. His value would have been greatest as part of a multi-player deal.
As for this affecting a LTC with Dunn, it shouldn't have any affect at all. The thing with Dunn is do you lock him up or let him get his raise through arbitration this year. Either way, they have already budgeted his raise. Any correlation to this deal and Dunn not being locked up is loose at best. However, knowing how the Reds seem to work, they may not see it that way.
Its effect on Jimenez? It sounds like they have their minds made up on that one, but aren't showing their hand yet. I'm sure if they non-tender him, this deal will be blamed whether or not that's the correct decision tree or not.
As for signing a Perez or Clement, I agree that we could have afforded one of them, I have to assume they tried and got no interest. Or they still have their head in the sand with regards to the higher priced FAs, who knows.
What do I think of the deal? Our staff still stinks, work still needs to be done in the bullpen, and Ortiz is not likely to change that. I do not think he made our staff any worse, but he also did nothing to dramatically improve it, either. He could indirectly improve the bullpen, though if he pushes a Josh Hancock type into the swing role instead of a regular in the rotation. Guess we'll hope he has another lucky year. However, some of the reasons given why its a bad deal I do not agree with. I think its a neutral deal and the Ortiz' of this world is what you get for $3.5M these days.
If this is the type of pitcher that Dan O and his scouts target then we are in for a bumpy ride. There is so much not to like about Ortiz.
I think its a neutral deal and the Ortiz' of this world is what you get for $3.5M these days.
The Ortizs AND Wilsons for 3.5 mil, thats the state of baseball economics.
I am now not sure I have any idea what the Reds are trying to do. I guess it could make some sense if they sign him to a 2 year not overly expensive deal. If not, I have no idea how this helps the Reds in the long term
I have mixed feelings, but my tendency is to "close rank" behind the organization and support what's been done, choosing to look at the positives. I choose hope over despair.
Sorry to see Dustin go. As a fan who follows the organization closely from the bottom up, it would have been nice to see Moseley break into the majors with the Reds. He always seemed to be considered a second-class prospect, by nationals and locals alike, and I saw him as an underdog who kept fighting his way toward the top, even as he endured the death of his father. When was the last time the Reds had a high school draftee break into their starting rotation? I can't think of a single example. Would have loved to see Moseley do it.
Ortiz. What's to like? Stuff. Some flamboyance. Something to prove. A definite improvement in the starting rotation, I think. A sign that the front office recognizes that we should try to make some hay while we've got that great young offense in the barn. And, he's new and different, and I always root for those players.
I ask the stat guys... how does Anaheim rank as a pitcher's park? If Ortiz' numbers as a starter are park-adjusted over his entire career, how does he measure vs. all American league starters in the same time frame (all AL starts made in that time)? I may have missed something, but I haven't seen a single reference to park-adjusted stats for him, while this was the drumbeat in evaluating Paul Wilson.
DanO's made it pretty clear that this is a deal made with the short term in mind. Those kind of deals need to be made. I would just like to see them get some real help with the short-term in mind instead of churning like an Ortiz deal does. The only positive I can see out of this deal is that the talent swap was fair.
In other words, we didn't give up a top prospect, which I realize folks have their opinions of Moseley that differs from mine, and I'm sure they'll be here to post his stats the first time he does something positive for his new organization.
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