Randa signed

[traderumor]

Need some clarification here. It is widely accepted that EE is our future at 3B. He OPSd .795 in a full season at AA last year, which is only 30 points higher than the guy we just signed, whose biggest flaw is lack of power for a corner position. So why are we so hip on EE?

And that's not a rhetorical question.

[Jpup]

Need some clarification here. It is widely accepted that EE is our future at 3B. He OPSd .795 in a full season at AA last year, which is only 30 points higher than the guy we just signed, whose biggest flaw is lack of power for a corner position. So why are we so hip on EE?

And that's not a rhetorical question.

he's young.

Personally I don't put much stock in Minor League numbers. I would actually like to see them play on the MLB level before I take a stance one way or another.

[REDREAD]

I'm not even going to get into the cost of the fruitless endeavors of signing Weathers and Weber. O'Brien's primary task was to improve the pen, and no GM has done that with more futility.

...
Considering that their mantra has always been "PayFlex" and that they just spent a lot of whatever their flexibility was, I'm now convinced that we should alter the name to "WasteFlex", because that's exactly what the Reds did.

The Reds took a bunch of money that should have gone to actually improving the team and wasted it on players they think can improve the team. I'm done. My patience is spent.
.

Steel, you make an interesting case. But consider this. Allen and Carl are giving DanO some money to spend. If the team doesn't improve it's W-L record over last year, I wonder if DanO is going to be on the hot seat.
Maybe Carl is tired of being booed at the stadium. We all know Allen wants DanO to come out looking better than Bowden was. If DanO falls on his face this year, I wonder if they'll show him the door. I have got to think that Carl probably expects a club that is improved this year.

[REDREAD]

Filling holes only keeps the Reds out of the cellar.....maybe. They still have noc chance of sniffing .500 let alone make them a real contender.
.

The team was in such a wreck last year, that I think it's impossible to turn the team into a contender in 2005. This is the fault of Bowden, Kullman, Maddox, Allen, Lindner, and DanO.

I mean even if you had the cash, it would be almost impossible to sign a legit #1, #2, #3, and resign Wilson as your #4 all in one offseason. The only team I can recall that did such a quick rebuilding was when the Marlins went on that big spending spree in 1997 (?) with Brown, Alou, Sheffield, etc.

IMO, this team needs to climb up the ladder of respectablity for someone like Clement to even consider signing here. Like EXBRAVEDAD said (and I believe), there's no chance even Millwood would even consider coming here.

Now Washington might end up snagging O Perez. There's usually a couple guys that can be had by a small market that overpays, but not enough to turn the team into a contender overnight.

I think whether the team cracks 500 next year will largely depend on Clauseen, Hudson, and Harang. And that would be true even if we traded for Randy Johnson. I think the revamped bullpen will help. I'm not a big fan of Weathers, but he's an upgrade by default. I like the Mercker signing. That's probably worth 2-4 wins alone over Norton.

I can see the arguement that perhaps DanO isn't spending the money optimally though. I just think that we are in such a big hole, that a reasonable goal would be to try to patch the team to marginally improve.
I'd rather do that than have the team tell the fans to be "patient" until 2009 when the farm help arrives.

And I'm happy as a clam that Kearns will not be at 3b next year.

[princeton]

Need some clarification here. It is widely accepted that EE is our future at 3B. He OPSd .795 in a full season at AA last year, which is only 30 points higher than the guy we just signed, whose biggest flaw is lack of power for a corner position. So why are we so hip on EE?
.

power is the last tool to develop. Some never get it, and become Joe Randas. But the best bets to develop it are very young hitters with great bat speed and good plate discipline, especially if they're advancing quickly.

[REDREAD]

gee, wonder who could have been signed with that 10.17

Who's to say that Clement would've came here? Boston would've probably just upped their offer to 11 million/year.

If you believe the press, 8-10 teams were chasing Clement hard. Cleveland supposedly pulled out all the stops to get him.

I don't know if the Reds seriously pursued Clement or not. To be honest, I'm kind of skeptical that they made an offer that made Clement think hard.. (ie I doubt they offered him more than 2 years). But it's hard for me to believe we were a serious contender for him.

The Reds have been losing for 4 years straight now. They just aren't a very attractive spot for a FA.

[MWM]

The team was in such a wreck last year, that I think it's impossible to turn the team into a contender in 2005.

So why try? Why not just admit the team's going to be bad for a few years and not waste money on 35+ years old players, just so you can "climb the ladder of respectability." Again, it's about deciding on a strategy and going for it all the way instead of trying to straddle the fence between respectability and bad. the only way a team climb's this ladder is by being in a playoff race. That ain't going to happen.

One thing that hasn't been discussed in all of this is the draft. If the Reds had all this money available, I would have preferred they saved it for signing draft picks instead of going to the Randas and Weathers of the world. If using money to sign these players just to keep out of the cellar means they're drafting on the cheap again, then I will be royally pissed. If they save some of this cash, they can draft whoever they want to. Last year if they would have had more cash, they could have drafted Jered Weaver or Stephen Drew.

[johngalt]

power is the last tool to develop. Some never get it, and become Joe Randas. But the best bets to develop it are very young hitters with great bat speed and good plate discipline, especially if they're advancing quickly.

Randa should still be good for 15 homers or so. Not huge power, but adequate enough considering people wanted Freel to play third.

Last year his homers dipped because of the changes they made to the ballpark with pushing back the fences. It ended the year giving up the second-fewest homers in all of baseball.

[MWM]

Redsfaithful,

In reference to your last post, for me, it's not what DanO HAS done. It's what he HASN'T done.

[traderumor]

power is the last tool to develop. Some never get it, and become Joe Randas. But the best bets to develop it are very young hitters with great bat speed and good plate discipline, especially if they're advancing quickly.

Or use the cream :mhcky21:

All kidding aside, thanks for an explanation. So it is safe to say that there is a significant risk that EE will not be able to put up the numbers we would like to see our 3B have in the lineup of the future, or we will have to take that into account as we fill other positions.

As for Randa, I can live with his 10-15 homers and 30-35 doubles and .340 OBP and he seems to fit in the lineup at a reasonable price. It isn't like we have a lineup full of judys.

[RedsFan75]

The Reds have been losing for 4 years straight now. They just aren't a very attractive spot for a FA.

I think this is a very good point. The FA's we've attracted the last few years have involved.... Lidle, Wilson, and ....... Hmm...

The Red's are attracting guys getting away from situations, wanting to show their abilities. The Red's, as much as we love em, will never attract the top flight guys, until they can show that these guys are going to be either contending, or supported enough to raise their numbers, so they get a bigger raise the next year.

Imagine being a Pirate or Brewer fan.... how do they get the FA's there... They are usually lower than the Reds.

[REDREAD]

and he entirely misses the point.

3B Branyan $800,000
RHP Clement $8,330,000
RHP Millwood $3,000,000
LHP de los Santos $450,000
RHP Weber (i like this one sorta) $1,250,000
don't non-tender Riedling.
and i think with a back loaded deal, you could get Wade Miller for about $900,000 and 2-3 million next year on a team option
sign LaRue to a two year deal instead of a single year. first year 2.5, second year 3.3. incentives for both years.

total: $14.73 million, plus $500,000 saved for 05 on LaRue. also i wouldn't have let Etherton go. i figure he'll start the year in Oakland's bullpen. undervalued minorleaguer who's hitting peak years and had a bloody good year in AAA last year.

though don't get me wrong, i still think this team will finish better than they did last year. i just don't think that'll hold through in 06

I think you are way underestimating what Miller will get. Unless his arm is completely detached, he'll get more than 900k and a TEAM option for 2006 that locks him into a lowball deal.

Look at what Leiber got from the Yanks.

Also, I do agree with you that letting Brayan go 2 years ago was dumb, but now we have to consider that we'd have to trade something to Milwaukee to get him back. And Milwaukee considers him to have value.

Also, I think you are low on Millwood as well. I expect him to get 4-5 million. IIRC, he has no health problems, just had an off year. Now, if he had an injury I'm unaware of, you might be right. But again, EXBRAVEDAD has said we have no chance at Millwood.. part of the reality when you've had 4 losing seasons in a row.. you can't pick and chose the FA you want.

I agree that they should've tendered Reidling. Also, I think the Reds only paid 600k for Weber, so that strengthens your case

[MWM]

Randa should still be good for 15 homers or so. Not huge power, but adequate enough considering people wanted Freel to play third.

Here's the SLG for all 3B last year with more than 400 ABs:

SLG                           YEAR     SLG    
1    Adrian Beltre            2004     .629   
2    Scott Rolen              2004     .598   
3    Aramis Ramirez           2004     .578   
4    Melvin Mora              2004     .562   
5    Vinny Castilla           2004     .535   
6    Alex Rodriguez           2004     .512   
7    Mike Lowell              2004     .505   
8    Eric Chavez              2004     .501   
9    Hank Blalock             2004     .500   
10   Corey Koskie             2004     .495   
11   Aubrey Huff              2004     .493   
12   Casey Blake              2004     .486   
13   Chipper Jones            2004     .485   
14   David Bell               2004     .458   
15   Tony Batista             2004     .455   
16   Brandon Inge             2004     .453   
17   Bill Mueller             2004     .446   
18   Ty Wigginton             2004     .433   
19   Chone Figgins            2004     .419   
20   Joe Crede                2004     .418   
21   Morgan Ensberg           2004     .411   
22   Joe Randa                2004     .408   
23   Chad Tracy               2004     .407   
24   Edgardo Alfonzo          2004     .407   
25   Eric Hinske              2004     .375   
26   Ryan Freel               2004     .368   
27   Sean Burroughs           2004     .365   
28   Scott Spiezio            2004     .346   
29   Desi Relaford            2004     .305

[REDREAD]

So why try? Why not just admit the team's going to be bad for a few years and not waste money on 35+ years old players, just so you can "climb the ladder of respectability." .

If Carl is willing to spend the money to improve the team, why not?
If the team did nothing this offseason, Pittsburg probably moves past them in the standings. Milwaukee has a lot of good young talent arriving soon, and if the Reds don't try, we'll be passed by them soon.
The Reds aren't going to be a contender any time soon, but they have to keep the fans interested in the product. None of the moves DanO has done are going to hurt the team long term or slow down the rebuilding process, unless Mosely backfires on them.
I can see the argument that perhaps DanO didn't spend the money optimally, but the Reds really aren't in a position to pick and chose whatever FA they want, even if DanO did have 10 million to spend. Does anyone think Clement would want to come here with a horrible bullpen and defense when he could get the same money in Boston? I mean, seriously, why would Clement want to come here with Kearns at 3b, Lopez at SS, and Wily Mo in CF? That sounds like a pitcher's nightmare.. and then the horrible pen would blow most of his W's.

Again, it's about deciding on a strategy and going for it all the way instead of trying to straddle the fence between respectability and bad. the only way a team climb's this ladder is by being in a playoff race. That ain't going to happen.
.

I have yet to see a reasonable alternative with our payflex that would've produced a contender. People say Ortiz is not a good gamble, yet Wade Miller is??

One thing that hasn't been discussed in all of this is the draft. If the Reds had all this money available, I would have preferred they saved it for signing draft picks instead of going to the Randas and Weathers of the world. .

Now this is a reasonable alternative. However, apparently this money is coming from Carl getting tired of being embarrassed. Historically, Allen has been quite stingy with the draft, it would be a hard sell to get him to double or triple the draft budget. Now maybe when the Reds get a farm success story under DanO, it would be an easier sell, but ever since the Howington disaster, Allen has been very cold towards the draft.

[traderumor]

So why try?

I don't see any indication that they are going to short the draft budget. So far, whether or not you agree with the picks, they funded the picks they made last year.

Why not just admit the team's going to be bad for a few years and not waste money on 35+ years old players, just so you can "climb the ladder of respectability." Again, it's about deciding on a strategy and going for it all the way instead of trying to straddle the fence between respectability and bad. the only way a team climb's this ladder is by being in a playoff race. That ain't going to happen.

If a GM isn't always looking at both the short term and the long term, he is a poor GM. Again, separating the actual deals and only looking at the intent, it is a good business plan in sports to not tank a season. I know the losing seasons are piling up, I've been sitting right here with you watching them. Still, these are short term decisions that you seem to think will hinder the long-term goals of the franchise. However, the flip side of that is "sign Clement" which is also counter to strictly a long-term focus. I don't see any fence straddling here. I see attempts at accomplishing growth in the franchise both in the short and long term. Again, disagree with whether that's being done or not, but that does seem to be the intent. I might add, what good does it do to sock away a pile of cash if you don't know what to do with in anyways? If they're incompetent, they're incompetent, whether they waste the money now or later.

One thing that hasn't been discussed in all of this is the draft. If the Reds had all this money available, I would have preferred they saved it for signing draft picks instead of going to the Randas and Weathers of the world. If using money to sign these players just to keep out of the cellar means they're drafting on the cheap again, then I will be royally pissed. If they save some of this cash, they can draft whoever they want to. Last year if they would have had more cash, they could have drafted Jered Weaver or Stephen Drew.

I did mention the draft in my last post, and the track record with DanO as GM is the draft was funded, no significant non-signings IIRC. Some would like more, but I don't recall much criticism with the funding of the draft, just with the picks that were made. And I for one am glad they didn't throw the cash being asked for at the two names you threw out there. But then again, we're hopeless because the money spent on draft picks will be a waste because they don't know how to draft either.