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Thread: Guillen to Oakland

  1. #151
    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
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    This was a freak show of a performance by Guillen. Plain and simple. And don't tell me you haven't seen lots of players have big contract years only fall on thier arse the very next year.

    It happens all of the time.

    I'm not sure Harang is going to be a savior. How could we know the answer? I do like the fact that he's 25, major league ready, and has something of an upside.

    What did the Reds have before they CLAIMED GUILLEN OFF OF WAIVERS? Certianly not Harang and Joe Valentine. That turned out to be a pretty good waiver wire claim.
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

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  3. #152
    Will post for food BuckeyeRedleg's Avatar
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    This is a good trade for both teams.

  4. #153
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    http://www.baseballamerica.com/today...30guillen.html

    Beane makes his move, grabs Guillen from Reds
    By Will Kimmey
    July 30, 2003

    Athletics general manager Billy Beane has made his first deadline deal of 2003. It's not his usual jaw-dropper, so there might be more to come. But he did take a step toward improving Oakland's offense by getting Jose Guillen from the Reds for minor league righthanders Joe Valentine, Aaron Harang and Jeff Bruksch.

    Guillen, 27, has been a revelation for the Reds after starting the year in Triple-A. He entered 2003 with mediocre career numbers (.260 average, .305 on-base percentage, .398 slugging percentage in 2,050 at-bats) and his once-promising career appeared headed nowhere. He had reached the majors at age 20 with the Pirates in 1997 but never recovered from being rushed. Outside of showcasing one of the game's best outfield arms, he had little to boast about. But Guillen suddenly has blossomed, hitting .337-23-63 in 91 games and ranking fifth in the National League with a 1.013 on-base plus slugging percentage. Questions about his maturity and makeup have dogged him during his career, and he had a locker-room argument with former Reds manager Bob Boone over playing time earlier this year. Guillen, who's making $500,000, becomes a free agent for the first time after this season.

    Valentine, 23, came to the A's in last December's Keith Foulke/Billy Koch trade with the White Sox. Valentine was a 26th-round pick out of Jefferson Davis (Ala.) JC in 1999. He led the minors with 36 saves in 2002, tying the Double-A Southern League record. Valentine goes after hitters with a fastball that can reach 96 mph and a slider that can be untouchable. He'll be ready for the majors once he masters his command, and he could battle Ryan Wagner to be Cincinnati's closer of the future. Valentine was 1-3, 4.82 with four saves in 40 games at Triple-A Sacramento. In 52 innings, he had a 53-37 strikeout-walk ratio and a .222 opponent average.

    Harang, 25, has split the year between Oakland (1-3, 5.34 in seven games) and Sacramento (8-2, 2.71 in 12 outings). A 1999 sixth-round pick by the Rangers out of San Diego State, he was traded for Randy Velarde after the 2000 season. He struggled in the majors this year because his slider wasn't good enough to keep hitters honest. He likes to pitch up in the zone with an 89-92 mph fastball and also has a changeup. His overall big league record is 6-7, 4.97 in 23 games, with an 80-54 K-BB ratio and .281 opponent average in 109 innings.

    Bruksch, a fifth-round pick out of Stanford in 2001, shared the career record for College World Series saves until Texas' Huston Street broke it with his fifth this year. Bruksch, 23, works almost exclusively with an 88-90 mph fastball and changeup. In 23 starts at high Class A Modesto, he was 10-8, 5.13. He also had an 87-54 K-BB ratio and .293 opponent average in 126 innings. He projects as a middle reliever.

  5. #154
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    Originally posted by SteelSD
    Ok. Find the Reds on other teams that once had a 1.000 OPS with us (heck, you can use .900 OPS if you want) and tell us which of them are doing "just as well" on other teams.

    In fact, find some of the pitchers we've dealt after "career years" and tell us how well they're doing on other teams also.

    Guillen may certainly turn in .800-.850 OPS seasons from here on out. That's not producing "just as well".

    Buy low- sell high. That's the name of the game in a small market.

    Now...we just have to figure out if we actually "sold high". That's where the value of this trade lies.
    I never said anything about pitchers but, I will just give ya a few of what I mean.....

    Brett Boone, .859 OPS with us in 94; .950 OPS in 2001 with Seattle
    and right now, .965
    Cameron .826 OPS with us in 99; .833 in 2001 with Seattle
    D. Young .856 OPS with us in 99; .908 right now with Detroit
    Encarnacion is about the same so this is what I mean when a player will do just as good or better with another team and what did we get from these players that are still here and putting up these numbers? Please tell me. What kind of pitching prospects did we get? What about FA pitchers?



  6. #155
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    From Team One Baseball:

    12/20/2002 1:35:02 PM - 2003 Scouting Report
    Valentine was the minor league reliver of the year- at least in the eyes of Rolaids and after that he came over in the Foulke/Koch deal. I have little to go on as I missed him in the AFL but based on his 2002 numbers alone, he’s got to have a spot on this list.
    By report, Valentine’s biggest pitch is his fastball that has some action and ‘plus’ velocity. Apparently he’s missing some bats with it and his second pitch breaker as he struck out 63 in 59+ innings at Double-A. He’ll need to sharpen his command and cut down on some of the walks (30 last year) but he certainly was locked in to end the season- he converted his last 24 chances.

    With Jim Mecir shelved for the first several months of the season, there is a spot for a set-up guy in Oakland. Valentine should have at least a puncher’s chance to land that spot. He’ll be 23 for all of 2003.

    -Scott Zilmer
    "People that frequent Internet forums resemble the cast of One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest!" - C. J. Cregg, The West Wing

  7. #156
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
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    Originally posted by cReds1
    I never said anything about pitchers but, I will just give ya a few of what I mean.....

    Brett Boone, .859 OPS with us in 94; .950 OPS in 2001 with Seattle
    and right now, .965
    Cameron .826 OPS with us in 99; .833 in 2001 with Seattle
    D. Young .856 OPS with us in 99; .908 right now with Detroit
    Encarnacion is about the same so this is what I mean when a player will do just as good or better with another team and what did we get from these players that are still here and putting up these numbers? Please tell me. What kind of pitching prospects did we get? What about FA pitchers?


    That's it? Your idea of "career year" is a low-to-mid .800OPS season with us? Did you perhaps miss Bret Boone's .629OPS in 1996 and .630OPS in 1997? Please quit talking like Bret Boone was a huge offensive player with the Reds. That's just not true. It took SEVEN YEARS for Boone's OPS to top .800 again.

    Nor is it true that Cameron or Young had "career years" with us.

    You're comparing apples to...well...whatever you want to pick that is totally unlike apples.

  8. #157
    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
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    And somehow Bret got a little...ummm..bigger with Seattle. I don't recall him looking like Popeye with the Reds, or Braves.
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

  9. #158
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    Man, I wish I had time to read all of the posts over the last few days!

    I like this trade... a lot.

    3 pitchers (2 of which appear to be close to ML ready) for a guy we picked up for peanuts and who most likely wasn't going to sign here next year anyway.

    Great trade by the current front office and good pickup by Bowden.

  10. #159
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    From the Cincy Post:

    "This year, we really have guys that are untouchable, and we weren't going to trade guys just to trade," Oakland GM Billy Beane told the Associated Press. "This wasn't a painless trade, but it was pretty easy."
    "People that frequent Internet forums resemble the cast of One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest!" - C. J. Cregg, The West Wing

  11. #160
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    Just been reading a few other boards to get thoughts of folks outside of Cincinnati. It seems that the majority of non-Reds fans think the Guillen deal was good for BOTH teams.

    Obviously, there are a few who think Beane took us to the cleaners, but most of them are A's fans comparing Harang to the A's current rotation. Harang is no Zito, Hudson, Mulder, or Harden, but few pitchers are.

    But a good number of A's fans admit that they think given a shot someplace like Cincy, Harang could blossom.

    One thing I did not realize is that Harang has more velocity than I first gave him credit. Evidently, when the A's allowed him to air it out, he could hit 95-96. But he is much better in the 91-93 range.

    Many see Valentine as Scott Williamson's replacement.

    Sometimes you just need some outside perspective.
    Opinions are like belly buttons. Everybody has one, and they don't want someone else's shoved into their face.


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