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Thread: Lidle traded

  1. #151
    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
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    Re: Lidle traded

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton

    maybe if you'd boned up on your Bagwell a little...

    I think we'll leave that to someone else thank you very much... :MandJ:

    Get it?

    He said...Aw forget it! :MandJ:
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

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  3. #152
    Member Stewie's Avatar
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    Re: Lidle traded

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan
    What's it say about your GM when you're trying to win by trading for pieces of the Cinci pitching staff?
    Well, as a Phillies fan, it's pretty depressing. Of course, I've known for a few years now that Ed Wade is a putz. His complete and utter botching of the Schilling deal (which alone should have been enough to get him canned), and then the Rolen deal pretty much sealed it. Then, if you look at the trades he has made in-season over the years that he has been GM, it all adds up. When the best trade you make in-season is acquiring Robert Person for Paul Spoljaric, well, that's pretty pathetic. When it was posted here earlier today that the Reds and Phillies were about to make a deal (posted by Will, was it?), I knew that had Cory Lidle written all over it. So to answer your question, it says that our GM is an idiot. :thumbdn:

  4. #153
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    Re: Lidle traded

    At least the Phillies GM is trying. He gave up mostly junk prospects for Todd Jones and Cory Lidle anyways.

  5. #154
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Lidle traded

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton
    .

    But even need is secondary here. The big part of the deal is that we just saved $900,000 or whatever we still owed Lidle.
    How could I forget about that? You got a good point there. Allen probably revised his attendence projections for the rest of the year after the recent losing skid

    Too bad we don't have any late round reach draft picks to spend that money on.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  6. #155
    Member Stewie's Avatar
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    Re: Lidle traded

    Quote Originally Posted by CougarQuest
    A few thoughts

    When I heard that Lidle was traded, I figured it was for a few prospects. I just didn't expect them to all be low A players. I figured we'd get a double A in there.

    If what Wade is saying is true .... Just what was O'Brien thinking before the deadline that he didn't want to trade Lidle? Do you think Wade upped his ante from the trading deadline offer since Millwood went to the DL?

    Do you think it's a PTBNL or Cash? Anyone know of any AA'ers on the Philly's 40?

    This trade sure makes the Jones trade look very big on the Reds behalf, if there isn't a PTBNL who is further up on the evolution chain.
    The only guys on the Phillies' 40 man roster that have not seen any major league action this season are Keith Bucktrot, Eric Junge, Juan Richardson, Jorge Padilla, Ryan Howard, Michel Hernandez, and Franklin Perez. I'm not 100% sure of all the rules involved in PTBNL, but I know that a guy can't have pitched in the league that he is being traded to, so that would mean that neither Geoff Geary nor Elizardo Ramirez could be the PTBNL, since both have spent time in the majors. My guess is it would be Junge or Hernandez, or cash. Although, Junge is injured and has been for most of the season, so I don't know how that would factor into things. I'll have to get a refresher in all the rules going into naming a PTBNL.

  7. #156
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    Re: Lidle traded

    Quote Originally Posted by CougarQuest
    Do you think it's a PTBNL or Cash? Anyone know of any AA'ers on the Philly's 40?
    A player currently on the DL could be a PTBNL.

    Ryan Madson is on the DL... :jester:
    I'm not a hooligan. I'm a Reds supporter.

    Hooray Beer!

  8. #157
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    Re: Lidle traded

    Do you think it's a PTBNL or Cash? Anyone know of any AA'ers on the Philly's 40?
    Cash if he tanks, Reds pick of a player (probably already agreed on) if he succeeds.

    At least that's my prediction.

  9. #158
    Member Stewie's Avatar
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    Re: Lidle traded

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    Cash if he tanks, Reds pick of a player (probably already agreed on) if he succeeds.

    At least that's my prediction.
    I thought it would be the Phillies that would get to choose a player. My belief was that when the deal is made, the teams agree on a list of several players for the PTBNL, then the Phillies would choose later who they decide to give up. I may be wrong on that, though.

    edit for spelling, but my grammar is still poor here. Sorry

  10. #159
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    Re: Lidle traded

    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie
    I thought it would be the Phillies that would get to choose a player. My belief was that when the deal is made, the teasm agree on a list of several players for the PTBNL, then the Phillies would choose later who they decide to give up. I may be wrong on that, though.

    Could be, probably is a list already.

    Hopefully he'll do something and the Reds can get a body.

    Word on the street is if the Reds end up getting cash they plan on spending it on this poster to hang in the clubhouse.


  11. #160
    Member CougarQuest's Avatar
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    Re: Lidle traded

    I was looking at the Phillies 40 and came up with (which, turns out, pretty much sounds like what Stewie said)

    Eric Junge: 27 year old righthanded pitcher with major league experience. Starter or reliever. Had shoulder surgery last year.

    Juan Richardson: 25 year old 3B who had a severe ankle sprain last year. Looks like this guy has some serious power potential.

    Franklin Perez: 26 year old righthanded pitcher who missed all of last year with elbow surgery.

    I think it would be a coup if O'Brien were able to get 21 year old right handed pitcher Elizardo Ramierz or 23 year old right handed pitcher Keith Bucktrot.
    Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

  12. #161
    Member Stewie's Avatar
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    Re: Lidle traded

    Quote Originally Posted by CougarQuest
    I was looking at the Phillies 40 and came up with (which, turns out, pretty much sounds like what Stewie said)

    Eric Junge: 27 year old righthanded pitcher with major league experience. Starter or reliever. Had shoulder surgery last year.

    Juan Richardson: 25 year old 3B who had a severe ankle sprain last year. Looks like this guy has some serious power potential.

    Franklin Perez: 26 year old righthanded pitcher who missed all of last year with elbow surgery.

    I think it would be a coup if O'Brien were able to get 21 year old right handed pitcher Elizardo Ramierz or 23 year old right handed pitcher Keith Bucktrot.
    Ramirez pitched in the majors this season, so he can't be the PTBNL. I know the rule for that says that a PTBNL may not have played in the league he is traded into in that season. Bucktrot is too highly regarded for them just to give him away (although it wouldn't be a first for Wade to give away guys that have potential). Perez just got promoted, and has been playing well. My guess will be Junge. He isn't very good.

  13. #162
    Member CougarQuest's Avatar
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    Re: Lidle traded

    MLB has Junge as 2-0, 2.21 ERA for his MLB career, 10 G, 1 GS, 20.1 IP, 6 BB with 16 K's.

    Stewie,
    Are you sure about that PTBNL clause? I've never heard of it (which, in reality, doesn't mean anything)
    Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

  14. #163
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    Re: Lidle traded

    I listened to O'brien on Furmans show (thankfully he was on vacation), but the impression I got listening to him was that he was "excited" about the PTBNL.....now I realize he has to be excited but my first thought was either someone they want to keep until the end of the season to help them in the pennant race or someone that hasnt been in the organization one year and cant be traded yet....

    Just what I took from his comments....Did anyone else hear them???

  15. #164
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    Re: Lidle traded

    Quote Originally Posted by CougarQuest
    Does it really make sense that the Reds get major league ready Josh Hancock and AAA ready Anderson Mercado for 36 year old relief pitcher Todd Jones and single A outfielder Brad Correll, and then 9 days later the Reds only get low A pitcher Joe Wilson and low A outfielder Jacon Moran and cash for 32 year old starting pitcher Cory Lidle from the same organization?

    The more I think about this, the more I think we are going to get someone off the 40 from the Phils.
    Actually, I get the opposite feeling. I see the PTBNL/Cash deal to be one of those value equitable deals dependant on Lidle's performance. And honestly, I'm not sure that the "cash" potential isn't more highly valued than the "PTBNL" side in order to recoup the net value loss the Reds took on Lidle this season.

    Now, I didn't mind the Jones deal. It was what it was. But Anderson Machado puts the "fringe" in the phrase "fringe prospect". In fact, he's the guy Scouts talk about when they begin a sentence with "If he hits...". I honestly have much higher hopes for a Ray Olmedo than I do a Machado, regardless of his BB numbers (ooh...heresy, I know). Josh Hancock might technically be "MLB-ready" but he doesn't really project to be "MLB-good".

    I've said it before and I'll say it again- The Jones deal was a Waiver Wire pickup for a couple of future Waiver Wire pickups.

    In the Lidle deal, the Reds acquire a guy who smells a lot like Phil Dumatrait and another "If he hits..." speed-driven prospect (Moran). That's not a bad swap considering that Lidle has been a negative value for the Reds this season. Considering that the Padres dealt a comparable player (Valdez) for a Travis Chick, it's not a bad deal for the Reds at all. I'm a bit concerned with the offensive players O'Brien's getting back, but that's another conversation entirely.

    But I do think the Reds did better much better from a "talent" perspective than the Jones deal. This offseason, they should be looking to package a couple of the guys they've received in these trades for truly projectible MLB-ready guys.

    Of course, there's always the chance that Phils management might be even dumber than I thought, but I don't think we'll see any valuable MLB-ready player as the PTBNL for Lidle.

    BTW, there are a couple different ways to look at the situational dynamic here:

    1. Dan O'Brien (per Ed Wade) actually DID think the Reds were in contention before the July 31st deadline and only listened to offers out of courtesy.

    2. Dan O'Brien positioned a "hardline" stance before the deadline to up the ante for other teams because he wasn't getting any offers as good as Wilson/Moran/Cash or PTBNL.

    3. Dan O'Brien was never really negotiating with anyone other than the Phillies and they never offered anything as good as Wilson/Moran/Cash or PTBNL.

    Now, considering that Dan O'Brien was restricted to negotiating with one team from August 1st on, is there anyone who feels that Dan O'Brien was able to get a bigger haul of talent in this deal than he was offered before the deadline?

    Again, I don't mind the return. But if that's the return out of Lidle when O'Brien was restricted to one-team negotiating, does anyone else feel that there might have been more out there?
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
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  16. #165
    Member Stewie's Avatar
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    Re: Lidle traded

    Quote Originally Posted by CougarQuest

    Stewie,
    Are you sure about that PTBNL clause? I've never heard of it (which, in reality, doesn't mean anything)

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/transanctionsprimer.html
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Neyer
    There are two restrictions at work here. First, the transaction must be completed within six months. And second, the player named later can't have played in the same league as the team he's being traded to. That's why the player named later is almost always a minor leaguer.


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