Lidle traded

[buckeyenut]

I was looking at the Phillies 40 and came up with (which, turns out, pretty much sounds like what Stewie said)

Eric Junge: 27 year old righthanded pitcher with major league experience. Starter or reliever. Had shoulder surgery last year.

Juan Richardson: 25 year old 3B who had a severe ankle sprain last year. Looks like this guy has some serious power potential.

Franklin Perez: 26 year old righthanded pitcher who missed all of last year with elbow surgery.

I think it would be a coup if O'Brien were able to get 21 year old right handed pitcher Elizardo Ramierz or 23 year old right handed pitcher Keith Bucktrot.

Last few messages have made it sound like Bucktrot might be the guy. But I could also very easily like with Richardson. Might give us a stop gap so we don't rush EE.

[Stewie]

Well, he's a 23 year old who is in AA ball which is not at all a bad thing. He pitched well last year and hasn't responded the way you might like this season. He isn't a strikeout pitcher, but seems to know how to pitch.

Again I'll bring up the fact that this is Cory Lidel that we got these 3 players for. I consider that they each have at least a fair shot at making it to the bigs, and if just one of them become productive for just 1 full season, they have provided more than Cory Lidle ever did as a Red.

Bucktrot throws hard, around 94-95, but from what I have heard, he has trouble getting his breaking stuff over. That could be the reason why his Ks aren't very high. If he could establish some good secondary pitches, he could be decent. He's definitely not at the level of Floyd or Hamels, and he's probably a step below Ramirez as well, but he is still too god to be a "throw in" in a deal involving Lidle. He's probably the Phillies 5th or 6th best pitching prospect right now, and he has a few years to go before he could be in the majors.

[Stewie]

Hey, thanks Stewie for your input on this thread. I really appreciate your perspective from Philly on this deal. I also enjoyed your last statement about the Philly media and the Eagles. My wife was in training in Philly this year and we went to visit her there. I read the newspaper both days I was there and I couldn't believe the articles written about the Phillies. They were either inaccurate or incompetent on baseball to write such articles (this was in May when Philly was really struggling)

No problem, I enjoy this board, it seems that you guys are knowledgable and get some good discussions going. And yes, the media is horrible. The main beat writer for the team thinks Bowa is a good manager and Doug Glanville should get more playing time. Enough said about that guy. Then there is one of the main sports radio "personalities" who constantly bashes Bobby Abreu b/c he doesn't "hustle" or get "clutch hits." Insane. It always makes me laugh when I see people here bashing Adam Dunn b/c his BA is low. It just reminds me of how a lot of people here attack Abreu for no reason at all. Dunn and Abreu are two of the best outfielders in the National League, or the majors for that matter, and there are people that nitpick and complain about them. I would kill to see Dunn on the Phillies.

Here's hoping that Stewie has to get a prescription of Xanax

No kidding, last night pitching coach Joe Kerrigan said to a reporter that they may consider going to a 6 man rotation. I didn't get all the details, as I think I blacked out or something. God forbid they take Paul Abbott out of the rotation. So whenever you think the Reds are having problems, just be happy that Gullett isn't considering a 6 man rotation (especially considering the fact that two of those men are Cory Lidle and Paul Abbott).

[Chip R]

Stewie, did you happen to read that article in the Las Vegas paper by Tyler Houston ripping Bowa and John Vukovich?

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_ho.../24440798.html

No kidding, last night pitching coach Joe Kerrigan said to a reporter that they may consider going to a 6 man rotation. I didn't get all the details, as I think I blacked out or something. God forbid they take Paul Abbott out of the rotation. So whenever you think the Reds are having problems, just be happy that Gullett isn't considering a 6 man rotation (especially considering the fact that two of those men are Cory Lidle and Paul Abbott).

Back in 1997 Ray Knight was going to experiment with a 6 man rotation. He got the boot not too long after that.

[traderumor]

Stewie, did you happen to read that article in the Las Vegas paper by Tyler Houston ripping Bowa and John Vukovich?

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_ho.../24440798.html

Back in 1997 Ray Knight was going to experiment with a 6 man rotation. He got the boot not too long after that.

Bowa will not survive this season if the Phils don't make the playoffs, and with the injuries that now seems to be a snowball's chance. Maybe teams will stop hiring members of the Phils championship team as managers finally?

[Spitball]

The more I think about this, the more I think we are going to get someone off the 40 from the Phils.

Coog, I was thinking the same thing. The apparent return doesn't make sense unless there is something a bit more significant awaiting the future. A bit like the David Wells trade from '95 that had platoon third base starter Mark Lewis going to the the Tigers after the season was over as the player to be named later. I've been wondering if the player might be Chase Utley. I doubt Lidle would command much more, even from a desperate Philly team.

[Stewie]

Stewie, did you happen to read that article in the Las Vegas paper by Tyler Houston ripping Bowa and John Vukovich?

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_ho.../24440798.html

Back in 1997 Ray Knight was going to experiment with a 6 man rotation. He got the boot not too long after that.

Oh yeah, I definitely read Tyler Houston's article. He was ripping Bowa when he got released last year (and before actually, too). Apparently, it all started b/c Burrell supposedly "snubbed" Bowa after Pat homered last season, and Bowa took out his anger by releasing Houston, since he thought Houston was the ringleader of the whole snubbing incident. Bowa called Houston "a loser," and said that there is a reason that Houston has jumped around from team to team and now is no longer in the league anymore. I did like how Houston volunteered to come out here and fire Bowa himself. He may have to, since I don't think Ed Wade has the guts to do it. Even if they don't make the playoffs, I fear that Wade will blame the injuries and allow Bowa to manage again next year. It's a pretty ugly situation. Personally, for the past couple years I have been advocating that they get rid of the whole front office, especially all the guys associated w/the 1980 team, and start fresh. I guess they figure that those 1980 guys know how to win, and it will rub off on these guys. They need to get rid of them all, Bowa, Vukovich, Greg Gross, Dallas Green, Boone (who knows why they brought him in in the first place).

[Red Leader]

I've been wondering if the player might be Chase Utley. I doubt Lidle would command much more, even from a desperate Philly team.

If its Chase Utley, Dan O'Brien should have a statue erected outside of GAB. There's no way the Phils part with Utley for Lidle. No way.

[Stewie]

Coog, I was thinking the same thing. The apparent return doesn't make sense unless there is something a bit more significant awaiting the future. A bit like the David Wells trade from '95 that had platoon third base starter Mark Lewis going to the the Tigers after the season was over as the player to be named later. I've been wondering if the player might be Chase Utley. I doubt Lidle would command much more, even from a desperate Philly team.

Wade has said repeatedly over the past week or so that he reufsed to part with Utley in order to get Kris Benson. He said the only guy that Pittsburgh wanted was Utley (which was odd, b/c they ended up getting less from New York). Plus, Utley can't be the PTBNL since he is in the majors now, so he's not eligible. Mark Lewis was able to go to Detroit as a PTBNL b/c he went to an AL team. My understanding is a player who has played in the majors in the season of the trade can't go from one NL team to another NL team (or AL to AL). They can switch leagues, however.

Also, if Ed Wade ever did trade Utley (especially as a throw in for Lidle), he would probably be shot. He's way too PR conscious to so something like that.

[PuffyPig]

Coog, I was thinking the same thing. The apparent return doesn't make sense unless there is something a bit more significant awaiting the future. A bit like the David Wells trade from '95 that had platoon third base starter Mark Lewis going to the the Tigers after the season was over as the player to be named later. I've been wondering if the player might be Chase Utley. I doubt Lidle would command much more, even from a desperate Philly team.

Can't be Utley because the PTBNL later can't be a player who's played in the majors if the trade is going to the same league.

Also, it can't be Utley because that would make this the trade of the century.

[Tony's Royals]

I think it cant be Ramirez either he pitched in the majors this year 2.

[Red Leader]

Which takes us back to Bucktrot, fa la la la, la la la....

[Doc. Scott]

Don't get me wrong- I'd still rather have Bucktrot than Junge or Perez, if solely on age and health issues.

[Spitball]

Hmmm...I didn't know the PTBNL later couldn't be a player who's played in the majors if the trade is going to the same league. I wonder about the reasoning when it is permitted between leagues.

I made a quick guess at Utley because he would fill a need in Cincy, and he seems to be blocked by David Bell and Placido Polanco in Philly. Also, I did not realize he was held in such high regard. He seems to have very average tools even for a second/third baseman. He doesn't walk much (7 in 59 games), and he has an OBP of .309. He is not a real good fielder so his strength would have to be his offense and that seems questionable at this point.

[Stewie]

Hmmm...I didn't know the PTBNL later couldn't be a player who's played in the majors if the trade is going to the same league. I wonder about the reasoning when it is permitted between leagues.

I made a quick guess at Utley because he would fill a need in Cincy, and he seems to be blocked by David Bell and Placido Polanco in Philly. Also, I did not realize he was held in such high regard. He seems to have very average tools even for a second/third baseman. He doesn't walk much (7 in 59 games), and he has an OBP of .309. He is not a real good fielder so his strength would have to be his offense and that seems questionable at this point.

Utley is the 2B of the future here, Polanco will be gone this off-season. Actually, Placido would be in Oakland now, had the A's not suffered a few injuries in the bullpen. That forced Billy Beane to keep Rincon, as opposed to sending him to the Yankees and having the Yankees send Lofton to the Phils. You're right in that he doesn't walk, and that does concern me a little. He does, however, have very good power, and could easily develop into a 30 home run guy (He would have 30 home runs this year if he had kept up this pace for an entire season). His defense isn't great, but it's not horrible. The hope is that Chase Utley develops into a left-handed Jeff Kent-type player. Adequate defensively, not very fast, but is a good hitter in the middle of the lineup. True, his OBP is only .309, but his slugging is .525. Actually, in looking at the stats, he is putting up very similar numbers to Wily Mo Pena. So if you want to look at it that way, he is the Phillies' equivalent to WMP.