Sully to Chi Sox with $$$ For PTBNL

[PuffyPig]

Sullivan may be on the team next year.

He may not.

I don't think this trade changes that.

[Raisor]

Originally posted by creek14
Why wasn't he going to be on the team next year? We have all that money between 40 (current) - 60 (projected bwahahahahaha) in the budget to sign a couple vets.

Instead of spending money on a middle reliever, why not spend that money towards a good young starter.

Payroll flexibility.

[PuffyPig]

Originally posted by Red Leader
I just think that once Sullivan hits FA at the end of this season, the Reds won't even get involved, unless he drops well into the range they are willing to spend on a reliever.

Good, I certainly wouldn't get into a bidding war for him. If he can't get $1M+ from another team, I might be willing to spend $750,000 on him, depending on our bullpen at that time.

Anmd if we had kept him...the exact same scenario.

Who knows, Sullivan's 6 weeks from home might convince him he doesn't want to pitch anywhere else than in Cincinnati.

[creek14]

Sullivan had said in interviews before that he wanted to stay with the Reds. So yeah, I think that he would have come back at the Reds salary.

And nice concept, Raisor, now exactly who is that good young starter and how do we get him here?

[westofyou]

As far as "why does this team need Sullivan in the bullpen next year/end of this year"? Well, it depends on what the goal of the team is.. Is the goal of the team to win games or minimize payroll?

The goal is NOT to pay more money for less.

Sully is on the downward trend, his ERA last year was over 6 and this season he's become a situation guy, 50 appearences and only 49 innings, that's a LOT of cash for so little.

Middle relief is much easier to replace at a low cost, you seem to think every move the Reds make that sheds salary is another white flag.

To me the white flag is paying guys for more than they can give and slotting guys like Castro to make up for keeping said players.

Projections will tell you that Sully has peaked and Castro will never get better, both are past 30 and make more than guys who can replace them. Keeping them as key cogs is not good business sense.... and that is something you're always accusing the Reds of not possessing.

Spending cash and player anaylisis don't always go hand and hand, maybe the Reds are finally getting it?

[REDREAD]

Originally posted by creek14
Why wasn't he going to be on the team next year? We have all that money between 40 (current) - 60 (projected bwahahahahaha) in the budget to sign a couple vets.

I agree with your line of thought Creek..Why did it have to be a given that Sully wouldn't be back next year? (Other than Allen's
cheapness)..

If Kerry Lightenberg only got about 1 million as a free agent last season, I can't imagine
Sullivan getting much more..

Consider that the average retread makes 500-600k...

I really don't like this Devil Ray philospy of saying "Well we suck, so let's just
field a team of minimum salaried players"..

The goal of these type of trades should be to increase the overall talent base
of the team.. this trade did not do that.

[CougarQuest]

Let's get this kid up and see what he looks like.

Let's see, with the Reds habits this year, Freel hit a HR, so he should be sent down to AAA any moment.

[Raisor]

Originally posted by creek14
Sullivan had said in interviews before that he wanted to stay with the Reds. So yeah, I think that he would have come back at the Reds salary.

And nice concept, Raisor, now exactly who is that good young starter and how do we get him here?

It's easier to find one when you have the cash then when you don't. If the Reds can't find one, they can always go back and spend that money on something else.

Creek, I really can't believe you are so against flipping a free agent for something. Like others have said, if Sullivan wants to be a Red next year, this deal doesn't make that impossible.

[Chip R]

I wouldn't mind having Sully back. But if he wants to play here so bad, he'd accept a 1 year deal at $1-1.25M. My guess is that someone - like StL - is going to show him the money (probably close or a little more than he made this year) and he'll sign with them. And I wish him the best.

[REDREAD]

Originally posted by westofyou
The goal is NOT to pay more money for less.

I can agree with this general line of thought..We are in a disagreement over whether Hummel is worth more than Sullivan..
IMO, even a situational reliever is worth more than Hummel, but I can respect your counter-assesment..

So let me pose this question again.. What about Heredia? Is it worth bringing him back next year, or should he be dumped for the best we can get for him? Let's assume Heredia would cost between 1-1.5 million next year..

[PuffyPig]

Originally posted by Chip R
My guess is that someone - like StL - is going to show him the money (probably close or a little more than he made this year) and he'll sign with them.

If the Cards want to give Sullivan $2.8M (or a little more) next year, be my guest.

He'll get closer to a third of that.

[Redmachine2003]

Tim Hummel 18SS


Full name: Timothy Robert Hummel
Born: 11/18/78
Birthplace: Goshen,NY
Height: 6'2"
Weight: 195
Position: SS
Bats: Right
Throws: Right
College: Old Dominion
MLB Debut: No ML Debut

.000

.000


G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG

YTD 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000 .000 .000




2002 Highlights:
Rated by Baseball America prior to the 2003 season as the No. 17 Prospect in the Sox organization...set a franchise record with 142 games played at Class AAA Charlotte...led team in hits (136), walks (51), sacrifice flies (nine) and multihit games (33), tied for the lead with 10 hit by pitch and ranked second in doubles (33)...his 33 doubles ranked fifth on the Knights' single-season list...hit two or more doubles in a game five times...played all four infield positions, compiling a .980 fielding percentage (12 E/645 TC)...hit .316 vs. left- handers...ended season with an 11-game hitting streak and earned International League Batter of the Week honors for 8/26-9/2...tied for second on team in walks (18)...played for Peoria in the Arizona Fall League, hitting .303 (27-89) with no home runs and seven RBI in 29 games.

Minor League Highlights
2001: Was listed by Baseball America as the No. 6 Prospect in the organization and No. 2 Second Baseman in the minor leagues... also named by same publication as the Class AA All-Star second baseman...spent entire season at Class AA Birmingham and finished fifth among all Class AA second basemen with a .290 average...ranked among Southern League leaders in hits (T2nd, 152), doubles (T3rd, 33), runs scored (5th, 83), triples (T5th, six) and average (8th)...finished among the organization leaders in hits (2nd), runs scored (2nd), triples (T3rd), average (4th), doubles (4th), walks (4th, 62), total bases (5th, 218), extra-base hits (T7th, 46) and RBI (10th, 63)... named to the SL midseason All-Star Team...led team with 10 sacrifice flies...reached base safely in 19 straight games from 6/6-29... played 93 games at second base, 36 at shortstop and five at third...played for Mesa in the Arizona Fall League...tied for team lead in doubles (eight) and finished second in runs scored (22) and walks (19).

2000: Split his first pro season between Class A Burlington and Class A Winston-Salem...combined to hit .326 (79-242) with two home runs and 30 RBI in 66 games....326 average would have ranked second among Class A shortstops, .001 off the lead, but he fell short of the required plate appearances...cited by Baseball America as the Best Hitter and as making the Best Pro Debut from the Sox 2000 draft class...played 41 games at shortstop and 25 at third base...reached base safely in 37 of 39 games with Burlington, including 26 straight from 6/25-7/21...compiled a 12-game hitting streak...was promoted to Winston-Salem on 8/6...was 6-7 (all singles) on 8/27 at Frederick ...was one of five minor-leaguers in 2000 and the only player in the Carolina League to collect six hits in one game...was recommended/signed by Doug Laumann and Alex Cosmidis.

Personal:
Single...played collegiate baseball at Old Dominion...became the first baseball player in school history to be named to all five All- America teams in the same season...was ranked 43rd among Baseball America's Top 100 Prospects...was named First-Team All- America by Baseball America, Baseball Weekly and Collegiate Baseball...earned the Colonial Athletic Association Player of the Year and Defensive Player of the Year awards in 2000...posted a school single-season school record with a .963 fielding percentage...hit .388 (254-655) with 20 home runs and 185 RBI in three seasons...posted a school and CAA record .508 career on-base percentage...earned CAA Rookie of the Year honors and was selected as a First-Team All-America by Baseball America and Collegiate Baseball as a freshman ...was a two-time selection on the USA Today High School All-America squad...played in the Cape Cod League...was chosen in the fifth round of the 1997 draft by San Diego but did not sign...brother, Daniel, is a catcher in the St. Louis Cardinals organization.

[Raisor]

Originally posted by REDREAD
I can agree with this general line of thought..We are in a disagreement over whether Hummel is worth more than Sullivan..

The question is, is having control of Hummel for the next six years (or so) worth more then hanging onto Sullivan until October in a lost year?

Sullivan CAN be resigned next year, and the team would still keep Hummel.

Hummel >Free agent Sullivan
Hummel+whatever Reds use the money they would have paid Sullivan (even if it IS Sullivan) > Free Agent Sullivan

[creek14]

I understand the reasoning behind trading a FA for something. I have just been more than a little suspect of all the trades since the Willy cash grab. That one left such a bad taste in my mouth that even a 1985 Dom Pérignon couldn't cleanse it.

[PuffyPig]

Originally posted by REDREAD

The goal of these type of trades should be to increase the overall talent base
of the team.. this trade did not do that.

let's see. Next eyar we have Hummell instead of.......nothing.

That's an increase in talent.

And we might just have Hummell and Sullivan. We just saved about $350,000 which can help towards Sullivan's salary.

In every trade involving a FA to be, you don't tend to get a comparable talent in return, on the basis that you are trading a talented FA to be (for 6-8 weeks) for a player who's yours for longer.

If we got a great, young cheaper version of Sullivan, for Sullivan, it would be pretty pointless of the Sox to do that, wouldn't it.?

So, expecting an increase in talent is debatable. But in this case, we might have just got it.

Of the players we have traded, Sullivan had by far the least trade value. And we may have picked up a starting thirdbaseman.