Sully to Chi Sox with $$$ For PTBNL

[princeton]

Originally posted by Carter
Question: Late last season and offseason.. Rangers had Blalock on the block.. what was the offer RedsZone came up with? I can't quite remember.. I want to say that it was Sullivan being rumored to the Rangers for him.

I was posting on the merits of dealing Scott Williamson and a prospect for Hank Blalock

what's your vision?

[creek14]

I'm just wondering since the Sox claimed Scott off waivers - meaning they must have really wanted him - especially with Kock's elbow problems - then why didn't we really play hardball with them? I can't believe we got a so-so infielder and also have to pay them part of Scott's salary.

[REDREAD]

Originally posted by westofyou

I like getting ANY IF with the ability to play more than 3 positions.

While that is nice, is there a shortage of guys that can play more than 3 Inf postions? .. I see Castro, Olmedo, Lopez, and Freel in a pinch already..

Originally posted by westofyou


Selling strengths to shore up weaknesses.

This team needs Castro at 3rd and Sully in the Bullpen for a whole season for what?

No team wins with a 3rd baseman who gets on base 26% of the time he comes to bat, even if they can keep a workhorse reliever who makes more than he should.

What I'm saying is though that Hummel might turn out to be a zero though.. In order for this trade to shore up a weakness, he has to be better than Castro.. It appears he's a weaker fielder than Castro.. and there's certainly no guarantee he'll even be able to hit ML pitching.. It's quite ironic that Brandon Larson has him beat on the RARP chart that was posted..

I'm just saying it's possible that Hummel won't be an upgrade at all. Is Hummel even an upgrade over Freel or Lopez? Again, I'm not sure at this point.

As far as "why does this team need Sullivan in the bullpen next year/end of this year"? Well, it depends on what the goal of the team is.. Is the goal of the team to win games or minimize payroll?

Consider that Lightenberg got about 1 million as a free agent.. I question whether Sullivan with his injury history is going to get more than 1.5 million.. Then consider that your typical scrap heap reliever makes 500-600k.. Consider the difference in production.
For somewhere between 400k and 1 million more, you can have Sullivan as opposed to a crapshoot reliever.. It's worth it, IMO, if the team is trying to win games.

If the goal is to minimize payroll, then I guess we won't be able to justify bringing back Heredia next year either .. do you agree?
Heredia is probably going to run in the 1 million neighborhood as well.. Can we justify keeping him?

I really don't like the logic of "Well, we aren't going to contend, so let's field a team of entirely minimum salary players".. That's the way the Devil Rays think..

I'm not sure Hummel is an upgrade at 3b.. that was my point in comparing him to Castro.

[PuffyPig]

I'm not sure Hummel is an upgrade at 3b.. that was my point in comparing him to Castro. [/B]

But I'm not sure that he isn't. Hummel has always been rated one of the best Sox' prospects. You certainly can't say that about Castro.

And he will be about $500,000 cheaper than Castro. That will get you something in todays market.

[Red Leader]

I really like the trade. I have read a lot of peoples comments about how Hummel is a no-stick middle IF hitter (worse than Castro, similar to Freel, etc). I don't agree. He's got a decent eye at the plate, makes good contact, and has decent speed. The one article I read mentioned that he could probably steal 15 bags a year. He has shown some power this year in AAA. With the dimensions at GAB, I would imagine he could produce close to 20 HR's a year. I think Hummel will be a good player for the Reds. I don't think management will give Branyan a shot to start at 3B everyday mainly because of his high strikeout rate. Larson is absolutely pathetic. I can't even stand to see his name anymore. I think Hummel could fit in very well in the #2 spot behind Jimenez and in front of Griffey. I picture him offensively to be what Marcus Giles was at the beginning of his career. A lot of potential, but it might take some time to get there. Everyone projected Marcus Giles to have the kind of season he's having this year about 3 years ago, it just took him a little more time to get there. I think we have a similar offensive player in Hummel.

[Raisor]

Originally posted by creek14
I'm just wondering since the Sox claimed Scott off waivers - meaning they must have really wanted him - especially with Kock's elbow problems - then why didn't we really play hardball with them? I can't believe we got a so-so infielder and also have to pay them part of Scott's salary.

Because the alternative was getting nothing for him and paying all of his salary for the rest of this season.

[cincinnati chili]

Originally posted by creek14
I'm just wondering since the Sox claimed Scott off waivers - meaning they must have really wanted him - especially with Kock's elbow problems - then why didn't we really play hardball with them? I can't believe we got a so-so infielder and also have to pay them part of Scott's salary.

I think the White Sox held better cards than we did. Sullivan' is not a sure thing, just an innings eater.

Think of it this way. If we kept Sullivan this year and then bought out his contract, we'd get nothing for him, but we'd still have to pay his salary the rest of the way. In a way, this is sort of like paying for an extra draft pick but Hummel's close to being major league ready. Personally, I think Hummell could use a third year at Triple A, but I imagine he'll be called up this year or compete for a job next year.

More than likely he becomes a major league utility player, as he can play 2b/ss/3b, but at 24, he still has a chance to be more than that.

[princeton]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Red Leader
[B] He has shown some power this year in AAA. [B] [QUOTE]

that's really the wild card. Power's always the last tool to develop. If Hummel can now be projected to hit with power, then he's intriguing.

you'd like to hope that the Reds dispatched Johnny Almarez and Gene Bennett to track Hummel over the past couple of weeks, and that they just LOVED his power potential.

and not that we settled for the guy that the Sox wanted to stick us with

[Raisor]

Originally posted by cincinnati chili
. If we kept Sullivan this year and then bought out his contract, .

The Reds have already bought out his contract, last season.

[princeton]

Originally posted by cincinnati chili
In a way, this is sort of like paying for an extra draft pick but Hummel's close to being major league ready.

right. and if this really was a waiver deal, then one of our other options was to not revoke the waivers and let Sully go to the Sox for free-- except that the Sox would have been responsible for the entire salary. Put another way, the Reds felt that Hummel was worth $350,000.

since the Reds have draft picks that are currently holding out for smaller bonuses than that, the deal also says that the Reds felt that Hummel was more valuable than a couple of intriguing top 10 draft picks. Hopefully, that's true

[Red Leader]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by princeton
[B]

Originally posted by Red Leader
[B] He has shown some power this year in AAA.

that's really the wild card. Power's always the last tool to develop. If Hummel can now be projected to hit with power, then he's intriguing.

you'd like to hope that the Reds dispatched Johnny Almarez and Gene Bennett to track Hummel over the past couple of weeks, and that they just LOVED his power potential.

and not that we settled for the guy that the Sox wanted to stick us with

I agree, princeton. If he can hit 20-25 HR's a year, he'll be solid. Like I said, I think he'll be similar to Marcus Giles, a lot of potential, but may take some time to fully develop. I wonder if we can get minor league comparisons for each side by side to see how similar they are.

[PuffyPig]

Does everyone remember that Aaron Boone certainly didn't put up eye-pooping numbers in the minor leagues, with little power until later.

Gee, sounds just like Hummel. I don't get it. Hummell is a very highly rated prospect who is now developing power. He's not a throw in. Plus, all we are trading is 6 weeks of Sullivan (no value to us) and saving about $350,000. And he plays positions we need the most (aside from pitching).

A great deal. As good as the Mercker deal, which I loved, but Mercker, as a LH reliever, and cheaper, and pitching better, had more value.

[CougarQuest]

I thought I read somewhere last night that the amount left on Sullivan's contract for this year was in the $590,000ish range.

I was looking at the White Sox AAA position players that could play 3rd base stats last night, and saw Hummel. There was another guy whose last name also started with an "H", can't think of his name right now. Something about Hummel made me think about Chris Stynes.

[SYCMiniBus]

Originally posted by Red Leader
I really like the trade. I have read a lot of peoples comments about how Hummel is a no-stick middle IF hitter (worse than Castro, similar to Freel, etc). I don't agree. He's got a decent eye at the plate, makes good contact, and has decent speed. The one article I read mentioned that he could probably steal 15 bags a year. He has shown some power this year in AAA. With the dimensions at GAB, I would imagine he could produce close to 20 HR's a year. I think Hummel will be a good player for the Reds. I don't think management will give Branyan a shot to start at 3B everyday mainly because of his high strikeout rate. Larson is absolutely pathetic. I can't even stand to see his name anymore. I think Hummel could fit in very well in the #2 spot behind Jimenez and in front of Griffey. I picture him offensively to be what Marcus Giles was at the beginning of his career. A lot of potential, but it might take some time to get there. Everyone projected Marcus Giles to have the kind of season he's having this year about 3 years ago, it just took him a little more time to get there. I think we have a similar offensive player in Hummel.

He has nevr stolen 15 bags in a season and I can garuntee that wont start at the MLB level (no one steals and better catchers). He really doesn't project as a 20 HR guy you don't tend to get much more power past age 25 (right about where he is). And since when is 82 K's this season and 95 a year ago a guy who doesnt K much. That projects to over 100 K's in the big leagues. I really do not understand this guy. He brings nothing, that god help more saying this, that Juan Castro doesn't bring except the Gold Glove. we have enough infielders who can play 3 positions in this organization we dont need another especially since unlike the rest of them this guy doesn't have plus speed. And your comparison to Giles I dont think holds water because Giles probably hasnt seen a breaking ball all season. With Sheff, Jones, and Jones hitting behind him he just gets fastballs all day long and he hits them. Also Giles has more speed then Hummel.

[Raisor]

Here are his career minor league numbers

2000-Class A 413/426 K/BB-32/34
2001-Class AA 364/416 K/BB-69/62
2002-Clas AAA 332/346 K/BB-95/51
2003-Class AAA 349/447 K/BB-82/45