Sully to Chi Sox with $$$ For PTBNL

[PuffyPig]

Originally posted by Red Storm

They have managed to move all the valuable, productive, fairly inexpensive players

Don't you consider guys like Kearns, Dunn, Jiminez, Wagner, Reitsma valuable, productive, inexpensive???

Williamson would make $5M next season, and plays a position (closer) we can replace more cheaply with Reitsma.

Boone would make about $6M next season, which is too much for a career .780 OPS guy (about .760 this year).

Both are FA after next season.

Guillen, Sullivan, Mercker and White are all FA after this season.

If all of these players had beeen kept, our team would be worse next season. Because 4 of them would be no closer to our team if we kept them.

And we'd be complaining about Williamson and Boone's salary.

Complaining about the return is one thing. Complaining about trading them is an entirely different matter.

[westofyou]

Remember the Bats infielder
who tore up AAA in 2000, 2001?
Lotsa power, good shortstop,
but he just couldn't make it
in the bigs when the Reds and Boston
brought him up?

Who?

Chris Sexton?

[Stormy]

Originally posted by PuffyPig
Don't you consider guys like Kearns, Dunn, Jiminez, Wagner, Reitsma valuable, productive, inexpensive???

Williamson would make $5M next season, and plays a position (closer) we can replace more cheaply with Reitsma.

Boone would make about $6M next season, which is too much for a career .780 OPS guy (about .760 this year).

Both are FA after next season.

Guillen, Sullivan, Mercker and White are all FA after this season.

If all of these players had beeen kept, our team would be worse next season. Because 4 of them would be no closer to our team if we kept them.

I understand your point, and I agree that some of these guys HAD to be moved. I think you know I was preaching the mantra that Williamson, Boone, Guillen were the types of guys who almost had to be moved this year *for the right return*. We are acting like it's an accomplishment to have moved these guys though: No it's not, they aren't some exorbitantly paid, underproductive lot. It is not an achievement to move a career 2.94ERA K-monster fireballer, the league's third most productive 3B at the time of the trade, and an OF with 320ABs of 1000+OPS ball making peanuts. These are not moves with a degree of difficulty like trading Bichette's $7 million, or Reese's escalating cost etc... and yet we are treating it like it is. "These guys were going to eventually make money, so it was a success just to move them." No.

The return was everything. We were balking at talks about Williamson for Juan Cruz + a prospect when we were in contention, and yet we traded him for a single A guy who should be more advanced, and a GCLer!!!! That is the problem. A guy voted to the All-Star team (deservedly or not) in Boone and a very effective lefty reliever like Gabe White traded for a combination of Manning (24+ at single A!!!, gee thrilled he can finally master it before his next shelling at AA) and a high ceiling pitcher a year removed from TJ whose velocity and K rates are down. I don't hate it, but it's hard to be pleased with it as well - as it weakens us everywhere and will take awhile to show returns). Guillen trade was OK, but frankly Harang will return to 5.00ERA form - book it. Valentine is in the midst of his worst year ever, and his 4th-5th organization... despite electric velocity and slider, and another A baller who should be more advanced for his age/stage, but isn't.

Why trade Sullivan? He is beloved by the Reds one area of strength, the bullpen. Hume calls him his "Assistant Pitching coach." Reitsma and Wagner have alluded to his great help and guidance, and we've managed to outrage an already disillusioned group of guys we want to eventually sign in guys like Reitsma, Dunn, Kearns? (not sure about him, but I'd bet solid "yes"). What did it accomplish? We got NOTHING, and I do mean nothing for him. A guy who won't even make our roster if we field more than a AAA team next year. What did we save, maybe $200,000?? At what cost.

I think the return, the process, and the tenor have all been wrong. And my point is that, if you are going to move your talent you'd better either get a.) maximum return, rather than cash savings, and b.) At least make teams who can sneeze at Williamson's $1.6 million, or Boone or White's or Mercker's miniscule salary eat one of the contracts we truly need to unload to get payroll flexibility.

the guys whose contracts are going to burden the 2004 Reds are all still here (Casey, Graves, Haynes, Wilson, Dempster?, Griffey)... so we really haven't dumped much in the way of payroll burdens, but we sure have dumped a lot of talent.

We basically head into next year with a good bullpen (though being weakened), part of a solid OF, and a horrid IF and Rotation... and we have to clear a lot more heavy salary to make the kind of additions that can fill those multitude of holes.

Moves like this serve no purpose IMHO.

[PuffyPig]

Originally posted by westofyou
Who?

Chris Sexton?

Sexton was a career minor leaguer. Nobody expected him to contend for a starting job.

Based on your theory, every good hitting minor leaguer is worthless???

[westofyou]

Based on your theory, every good hitting minor leaguer is worthless???

I'm sorry.. was this directed at me? Or Ga Red?

[Stormy]

Originally posted by PuffyPig
Sexton was a career minor leaguer. Nobody expected him to contend for a starting job.

Based on your theory, every good hitting minor leaguer is worthless???

Regarding Hummel, that's irrelevant, as he's not a good hitting minor leaguer, even at AAA, as he nears 25.

[J "Cooper"]

For a 2nd baseman, and i know he played 3rd this year, but if he plays 2nd those are good numbers for a 24 yr. old middle infielder. In fact, I'd venture to say they might be top 3 for a 2nd baseman in AAA. There's nothing wriong with that.

[J "Cooper"]

The average 2nd baseman in the International league is .725 OPS. Hummel put up a .796 OPS. His was .291 2nd best 3rd baseman in the IL. If he plays 2nd his EQA is also #2.

RS: how can you write he's not a good hitting minor leaguer. It appears you are comparing him against Outfielders when that's not really fair. Are there that many 3rd baseman in the minors who are better than Hummel?

His numbers for an IF are well above average for a middle infielder-his age also works for him. At 24 he's got a couple years to reach his peak and fill out.

[37red]

All the stats aside, I only see the ownership dumping the best players on the team. They are counting pennies compared with what they have, and it sucks that the people of Cincinnati paid for a new stadium without a clause that the billionaire wouldn't have to put up the bucks to make a competing team. I hate looking at the line up and not knowing any of the names. It mostly sucks to me. I don't even know what to say, the reds are gone as a team. It's rebuilding so we can dump again when they get good enough to trade or give away for more money in the banana mans pocket. There is no satisfaction to me to see the players leave that have recently, no, I'd like to have seen their qualities added to not detracted from. The reds aren't even qualified to be in a major league stadium. How can any of you look at this team and not feel sorry for the few remaining players that have played and stayed. It sucks.

[37red]

My kids wanted to go to a game this year, but this is the end for awhile. I'll take them to another park that has some tradition and some honor. The reds have become nothing to speak of, a bus stop for players and that's all. It hurts having been a kid that spent many times in Crosley Field watching the reds of memory. This stuff today is nothing but more imports from china. They need to kick out the banana man and all of his buddies and make owners sign contracts that will fulfill the needs of providing a MAJOR LEAGUE TEAM, kick out the liers, make them put up or get out.

[westofyou]

It hurts having been a kid that spent many times in Crosley Field watching the reds of memory.

37 no offense but Crosley housed some pretty bad teams in its day.

[37red]

they were teams that stayed together and played together. The owners sucked at times, but the shuffling of players wasn't so constant. If it comes down to it west of you, I feel like the support for the reds is rediculous. Why even make a team picture for the card packs when there is so little support for a "team".

[Buckeye33]

Ummm....teams that played in Crosley Field stayed together because for the majority of the time it was open, there was no free agency.

They didn't stay together because the owners/GMs wanted or didn't want them to.

[Stormy]

Originally posted by J "Cooper"
His numbers for an IF are well above average for a middle infielder-his age also works for him. At 24 he's got a couple years to reach his peak and fill out.

It won't take much time watching him to realize why he won't be playing much 2B anymore. So, I regard him as a 25 year old (in 3 months) corner IF, who is putting up solid but less than exceptional numbers at AAA. We've seen that Larson and Mateo's monster IL AAA numbers have yet to translate to much at this level, and my estimate is that Hummel's much less impressive numbers and modest skills will translate into even less.

We'll see I guess.

[westofyou]

they were teams that stayed together and played together.

From 1950-1969 the Reds finished 4th or worse 15 times, in 1950 the average salary was $13,228 in 1969 it was $24,909.

In short those teams stayed together because they had no power, no choice... nothing, you got to know everyone because everyone was always coming back. That was your team, your guys the ones who lived in your neighborhood, my mother-in-law lived down the street from Klu, she knew Ed Bailey. If a guy got traded chances were the guy they got looked just like him and was there for a few years as well, soon you knew all his nuances.

In 2002 the average salary in MLB was $2,024,677,522.

That's why the "team" never stays the same.