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Thread: Beautiful Day in Iraq

  1. #46
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Beautiful Day in Iraq

    CBus, the first nine words in this thread are "News reports that 60% of eligible voters turned out ..."

    Mind you, I don't think the turnout's all that important. First off, third world nations routinely get great turnout. So it's hard to know whether 60% represents a wild success for election organizers or for the forces trying to suppress the vote.

    Second, and much more critical, is who gets elected and what they do once empowered. If they create a Shi'a constitutional theocracy then we won't be smiling about this election in the future.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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  3. #47
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    Re: Beautiful Day in Iraq

    It is not at all surprising to see many of those who were originally against the war run to the negative on what is clearly a substantially positive election. Most of those who want to temper any good feelings as a result of the higher than expected turnout seem to think that many of us feel the heavy lifting is over. We're all done, mission accomplished, democracy is in place, etc... Do you really think being grateful over this election turnout means we think there is no hard work left? Who said that?

  4. #48
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    Re: Beautiful Day in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    I love it. Media types that have been true blue anti-war throughout are going to go with the flow on the election? Taking one for the team? So, since those who have been negative throughout about our efforts in Iraq must be embellishing if they are reporting good news with respect to the election. Horse hockey.
    You make a really good point if your premise that the mentioned media-types have been anti- war, is accurate. A lot of people don't think thats true.
    Last edited by Mutaman; 01-31-2005 at 08:19 PM.

  5. #49
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    Re: Beautiful Day in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful
    From 1967:

    http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/nytimes/...Y+VIETNAM+VOTE



    You can read the whole article here:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/31/2335/87390

    I hadn't realized South Vietnam had elections. Puts things in perspective I think.
    Thanks for providing an example of an election from which democracy did NOT take root. I'm sure you could provide other examples too. Does that mean we should no longer advocate the removal of totalitarian regimes for free elections?

    And are you assuming that the majority of South Vietnam was communist and the election was a sham? Or did they eventually lose their democracy as a result of a relentless onslaught from the North? I think there is a difference between not wanting it and having it taken away from you.

    Does it mean anything to you that so many Iraqis came out to vote in spite of the insurgents threats that "streets would flow with the blood of voters" and that democracy went against God's wishes? What do you think when they interviewed all those happy voters?

  6. #50
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: Beautiful Day in Iraq

    Most of those who want to temper any good feelings as a result of the higher than expected turnout seem to think that many of us feel the heavy lifting is over.
    I'd like to see for sure whether the turnout was really that high first. We'll know in the next week or so.
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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  7. #51
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: Beautiful Day in Iraq

    Does that mean we should no longer advocate the removal of totalitarian regimes for free elections?
    I think that's a great idea. Ten years ago most Republicans agreed with me.
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
    --Oscar Wilde

  8. #52
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    Re: Beautiful Day in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful
    I think that's a great idea. Ten years ago most Republicans agreed with me.
    I guess not all dictators are the same. Not all dictators invade two of his neighbors, use WMD, and thumb his nose at cease fire agreements.

    But I think you're trying to change the subject away from the Iraqi elections.

  9. #53
    SERP deep cover ops WebScorpion's Avatar
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    Re: Beautiful Day in Iraq

    No matter how you feel about the war and the US role in it, you can't help but feel for those people who risked their lives to cast the first vote of their lives and danced in the streets in celebration. Anyone who can't feel the emotion in those images is extremely jaded. No matter what becomes of Iraq in the future that was an historic occasion.

    "Okay you guys, pair up in threes!" --Yogi Berra

  10. #54
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    Re: Beautiful Day in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by WebScorpion
    No matter how you feel about the war and the US role in it, you can't help but feel for those people who risked their lives to cast the first vote of their lives and danced in the streets in celebration. Anyone who can't feel the emotion in those images is extremely jaded. No matter what becomes of Iraq in the future that was an historic occasion.

    I guess conservatives just feel things more deeply than liberals do.

  11. #55
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: Beautiful Day in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix
    Not all dictators invade two of his neighbors, use WMD, and thumb his nose at cease fire agreements.
    We supported him every step of the way. Is there anything you'd hold your country accountable for?
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
    --Oscar Wilde

  12. #56
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Beautiful Day in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix
    It is not at all surprising to see many of those who were originally against the war run to the negative on what is clearly a substantially positive election. Most of those who want to temper any good feelings as a result of the higher than expected turnout seem to think that many of us feel the heavy lifting is over. We're all done, mission accomplished, democracy is in place, etc... Do you really think being grateful over this election turnout means we think there is no hard work left? Who said that?
    Higher than expected turnout? Exactly how do you figure expected turnout in a situation like this? Seriously. You can't exactly poll for this sort of thing.

    Beyond that Iraqis have a long voting history, where pretty much everyone in the country was made to come out and vote for Saddam Hussein. You're assuming the "expected" was some fictional low number. Perhaps you'd have seen 95% turnout (not that unusual a number in some nations) if not for the threat of violence. If that's the case, if one-third of the potential electorate stayed home, then weren't the threats of violence wildly successful and wouldn't that make yesterday a beautiful day for al-Zarqawi?

    I'm all for giving credit to the folks who came out to vote. I share Scorpy's sentiment and admiration for them.

    But do we have to be over the top about everything? Elections are only as good as the people who get elected and we have no idea who just got elected and even less of an inkling as to how well they're going to perform.

    I fully recognize good things happened with the election, but for my it's like hitting a homer, scoring a touchdown, netting a goal or draining a three-pointer -- act like you've been there before.
    Last edited by M2; 01-31-2005 at 10:46 PM.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  13. #57
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Beautiful Day in Iraq

    But do we have to be over the top about everything?
    Backlash for all the negative press Bush has received. Now, anything positive he accomplishes will be met with a hallelujah praise chorus. If you do it enough, it becomes easier to forget the mistakes he made (WMDs).
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  14. #58
    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: Beautiful Day in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    But do we have to be over the top about everything? Elections are only as good as the people who get elected and we have no idea who just got elected and even less of an inkling as to how well they're going to perform.

    I fully recognize good things happened with the election, but for my it's like hitting a homer, scoring a touchdown, netting a goal or draining a three-pointer -- act like you've been there before.
    Coming from an American in Boston... means nothing. As a matter of fact it sounds downright arrogant.

    Ask an Iraqi. Maybe one who has been afraid of being killed or having their family killed at anytime. Maybe one who has had family members dragged out of their home in the middle of the night never to be seen again. 39 years.

    An American from Boston has not been there before. He cannot act like he has been there before. He votes at his leisure and does not worry about being killed while voting. He has had the opportunity to vote since he was 18 years-old each and every time. Act like you've been there? HAVE YOU? No answer needed... b/c it is NO. But feel free to ask an Iraqi.

    You have to take the 1st step to get anywhere. And, similiar to the famous words of an astronaut named Armstrong, it can be a giant leap for Iraq. If you cannot ask an Iraqi... find a senior African American who grew up in the South of this country. Not the same... but close enough.
    Small market fan... always hoping, but never expecting.

  15. #59
    SERP deep cover ops WebScorpion's Avatar
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    Re: Beautiful Day in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutaman
    I guess conservatives just feel things more deeply than liberals do.
    I do hope you're being sarcastic. If not, maybe you should try not to put everything in a little box with a label on it. Many people form their opinions independent of party affiliation, religion, friends' opinions, etc. It is possible to be against the war, but still in favor of freedom.

    "Okay you guys, pair up in threes!" --Yogi Berra

  16. #60
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Beautiful Day in Iraq

    Coming from an American in Boston...
    When you can't attack the message, attack the source.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful


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