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Thread: M2/Guernsey Bet On the 2005 Reds Team ERA

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  1. #1
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    M2/Guernsey Bet On the 2005 Reds Team ERA

    The Reds may play in the sixth-easiest park in the National League to hit a home run in. But that hasn't stopped them from plowing in this winter to acquire two of the five active pitchers who have had a 40-gopherball season -- Eric Milton and Ramon Ortiz.

    Well, it isn't often that you see a team acquire two 40-gopherball men in the same season. In fact, it isn't ever -- according to the Sultan of Swat Stats, SABR home run historian David Vincent. (The others, because we know you have to know: Jamie Moyer, Jose Lima and Brad Radke.)

    The Sultan reports that only three previous teams have employed two different pitchers who once served up 40 homers. But none of them made a joint entrance. So this is true gopherball history. Here are those other duos:

    1964 Yankees
    Pedro Ramos (43, 1957)
    Ralph Terry (40 ,1962)

    1966-1967 Tigers
    Denny McLain (42, 1966)
    Orlando Pena (40, 1964)

    1972 Braves
    Denny McLain (42, 1966)
    Phil Niekro (40, 1970)

  2. #2
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Additional Info from Jayson Stark - Milton/Ortiz

    Sure looks like it could be a waste of a cool $13M in 2005.

    But that's OK, I am going to stick my head in the sand with everyone else.

  3. #3
    Bunn-O-matic max venable's Avatar
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    Re: Additional Info from Jayson Stark - Milton/Ortiz

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85
    Sure looks like it could be a waste of a cool $13M in 2005.

    But that's OK, I am going to stick my head in the sand with everyone else.
    Seriously...those are some pretty doggone decent pitchers on that list. Like I said in another post...as strange as it sounds, you've got to be a pretty decent pitcher to give up 40 HR in one season.

    Somebody back me up on this one.

  4. #4
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Additional Info from Jayson Stark - Milton/Ortiz

    Is the GAB rated as a HR friendly park, partially due to the staff we've trotted out there, and Dunn/Jr/Kearns/Pena? Or do they have some way to remove the influence of a poor hometeam pitching staff and/or powerful HR hitting home team?

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    Re: Additional Info from Jayson Stark - Milton/Ortiz

    Maybe this will help...

    Reds homers 2003-2004:

    Home - 189 (680 runs scored)
    Away - 187 (764 runs scored)

    Opponents homers 2003-2004:

    Home - 246 (ERAs of 4.75 and 4.97)
    Away - 199 (ERAs of 5.70 and 5.22)

  6. #6
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Additional Info from Jayson Stark - Milton/Ortiz

    Most HR's ever given up in the NL by a team not named "The Rockies"

    Code:
    HOMERUNS                        HR     
    1    Jose Acevedo                 30   
    T2   Aaron Harang                 26   
    T2   Paul Wilson                  26   
    4    Cory Lidle                   24   
    5    Todd Van Poppel              22   
    6    Josh Hancock                 14   
    T7   Gabe White                   12   
    T7   Danny Graves                 12   
    9    John Riedling                10   
    10   Brandon Claussen              9   
    T11  Mike Matthews                 7   
    T11  Ryan Wagner                   7   
    13   Juan Padilla                  6   
    T14  Brian Reith                   5   
    T14  Phil Norton                   5   
    T16  Todd Jones                    4   
    T16  Jesus Sanchez                 4   
    T16  Joe Valentine                 4   
    T19  Luke Hudson                   3   
    T19  Jimmy Haynes                  3   
    T19  Jung Bong                     3

  7. #7
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Additional Info from Jayson Stark - Milton/Ortiz

    The two new guys jump to the top of the list, they must be studs.

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    Re: Additional Info from Jayson Stark - Milton/Ortiz

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85
    The two new guys jump to the top of the list, they must be studs.
    Considering everyone but Stark hate Milton and Ortiz they may not be studs but I'm not going to whine about them and call them a waste of money without giving them a chance to prove themselves. That's just a waste of time. I could care less about how many homeruns they gave up last year because of different circumstances (Milton still recovering from knee surgery, Ortiz being yanked around by the Angels). So are they studs? No. Are they a waste of $13M, gee I don't know, lets let them at least pitch in a Spring Training game before calling them garbage. With the number of pitchers who have turned their careers around or jumpstarted their careers you would think people would learn to stop ripping a guy before letting him prove himself.

  9. #9
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Additional Info from Jayson Stark - Milton/Ortiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket_Fuel
    Considering everyone but Stark hate Milton and Ortiz they may not be studs but I'm not going to whine about them and call them a waste of money without giving them a chance to prove themselves. That's just a waste of time. I could care less about how many homeruns they gave up last year because of different circumstances (Milton still recovering from knee surgery, Ortiz being yanked around by the Angels). So are they studs? No. Are they a waste of $13M, gee I don't know, lets let them at least pitch in a Spring Training game before calling them garbage. With the number of pitchers who have turned their careers around or jumpstarted their careers you would think people would learn to stop ripping a guy before letting him prove himself.
    Prove themselves?

    I submit they've already done that.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  10. #10
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Additional Info from Jayson Stark - Milton/Ortiz

    Quote Originally Posted by timmario66
    The Reds may play in the sixth-easiest park in the National League to hit a home run in. But that hasn't stopped them from plowing in this winter to acquire two of the five active pitchers who have had a 40-gopherball season -- Eric Milton and Ramon Ortiz.

    Well, it isn't often that you see a team acquire two 40-gopherball men in the same season. In fact, it isn't ever -- according to the Sultan of Swat Stats, SABR home run historian David Vincent. (The others, because we know you have to know: Jamie Moyer, Jose Lima and Brad Radke.)

    The Sultan reports that only three previous teams have employed two different pitchers who once served up 40 homers. But none of them made a joint entrance. So this is true gopherball history. Here are those other duos:

    1964 Yankees
    Pedro Ramos (43, 1957)
    Ralph Terry (40 ,1962)

    1966-1967 Tigers
    Denny McLain (42, 1966)
    Orlando Pena (40, 1964)

    1972 Braves
    Denny McLain (42, 1966)
    Phil Niekro (40, 1970)
    In 1957 Ramos went 12-16 with a 4.79 ERA for the Senators; despite a career mark of 117-160, he was good enough to put in 15 seasons in the majors.
    Terry went 23-12 for the 1962 World Champion Yankees, leading the AL in wins, and posting a 3.19 ERA. He went 16-3 for the Yanks in '61 and 17-15 in '63, with a career mark of 107-99. He was a quality pitcher.
    Pena was 12-14 for the 1964 A's and 56-77 for his career. He was the worst pitcher mentioned.
    McLain was a great pitcher, but only for a few seasons. In 1966, he gave up the 42 HRs mentioned, but he also went 20-14. In 1968 McLain was 31-6 and he went 24-9 the next season, before his career fell apart. He finished with a 131-91 mark, two Cy Young awards, one MVP award, several suspensions, and constant controversy.
    Niekro was only 12-18 in 1970, but he deserved his election to the HOF, having three 20 win seasons and more than 300 career wins.
    I agree with Max.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  11. #11
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    Re: Additional Info from Jayson Stark - Milton/Ortiz

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron
    I agree with Max.
    I'm sure that the Reds could have let Acevedo pitch 225 innings and watched him give up 45 HRs

    still wouldn't have made him Bert Blyleven or Robin Roberts

    good pitchers can give up HRs; unfortunately for the Reds, that's not why those pitchers are good. They're good in spite of the HRs

    our guys aren't

  12. #12
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    Re: Additional Info from Jayson Stark - Milton/Ortiz

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton
    I'm sure that the Reds could have let Acevedo pitch 225 innings and watched him give up 45 HRs

    still wouldn't have made him Bert Blyleven or Robin Roberts

    good pitchers can give up HRs; unfortunately for the Reds, that's not why those pitchers are good. They're good in spite of the HRs

    our guys aren't
    Milton won something like 16 games, and Ortiz did two a couple of years ago and was a key guy on the Angels' world championship team, I think those make them pretty good pitchers.

  13. #13
    smells of rich mahogany deltachi8's Avatar
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    Re: Additional Info from Jayson Stark - Milton/Ortiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket_Fuel
    Milton won something like 16 games, and Ortiz did two a couple of years ago and was a key guy on the Angels' world championship team, I think those make them pretty good pitchers.
    hey that Jimmy Haynes won 15 games once too, he must be pretty good.
    Nothing to see here. Please disperse.

  14. #14
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Additional Info from Jayson Stark - Milton/Ortiz

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton

    good pitchers can give up HRs; unfortunately for the Reds, that's not why those pitchers are good. They're good in spite of the HRs
    Oh I know that. The point wasn't that giving up 40 HRs in a season made someone a good pitcher; it was a pitcher either had to have been good at some point or be thought to have "potential" to be allowed to pitch enough to give up 40 HRs.
    You have to be a decent pitcher to lose 100 games in your career; you have to be a good pitcher to lose 200; lose 256 or more and you are a Hall of Fame pitcher-----not because of the losses, but because you won't be allowed to pitch enough to lose all those games unless you have some ability.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  15. #15
    RZ Chamber of Commerce Unassisted's Avatar
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    Re: Additional Info from Jayson Stark - Milton/Ortiz

    OTOH, with the abundance of free baseballs, the outfield seats will become the hottest ticket in town for souvenir hunters.

    There's always a bright side.
    /r/reds


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