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Thread: State of the Union

  1. #46
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis
    And lo, a mere 8 years later, we were piloting the last helicopter out of Saigon as the city fell to VC forces, 58,000 dead Amercians later.
    Saigon did not fall to "VC forces." After 1968, the Viet Cong were not the primary opponent faced by American and South Vietnamese forces; the primary opponent was North Vietnam. Saigon fell in 1975 to units of the North Vietnamese regular army, not to the Viet Cong.
    IMO too many Americans who came of age during the runup to World War II saw every foreign policy crisis as a repeat of Hitler and the dangers of appeasement, while too many Americans who came of age during the Viet Nam War see every foreign crisis to be a simple replay of that tragic war. There are lessons to be learned from each conflict, but history rarely plays itself out in a simple and exact repeat of the past.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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  3. #47
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Excellent post, RedsBaron
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

  4. #48
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    Re: State of the Union

    There are lessons to be learned from each conflict, but history rarely plays itself out in a simple and exact repeat of the past.
    Good point. If one needs an analogous war, I'd suggest looking at our occupation of the Phillipines.
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

  5. #49
    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron
    Saigon did not fall to "VC forces." After 1968, the Viet Cong were not the primary opponent faced by American and South Vietnamese forces; the primary opponent was North Vietnam. Saigon fell in 1975 to units of the North Vietnamese regular army, not to the Viet Cong.
    IMO too many Americans who came of age during the runup to World War II saw every foreign policy crisis as a repeat of Hitler and the dangers of appeasement, while too many Americans who came of age during the Viet Nam War see every foreign crisis to be a simple replay of that tragic war. There are lessons to be learned from each conflict, but history rarely plays itself out in a simple and exact repeat of the past.
    Re: the Fall of Saigon....Saigon was briefly held by the National Front, the political body whose military wing, the PLAF, was comprised of the Viet Cong, after the fall of Saigon. While true that it was the DRV's army which took Saigon in 1975, the VC were still a viable organization.

    Concerning Vietnam in general, I don't view Vietnam and Iraq as carbon copies at all. To begin, there is the obvious difference in casualties. But there are numerous similarities that, likewise, can't be ignored: the invasion and subsequent occupation of a country under ambiguous circumstances, a prolonged guerilla insurgency which shows no signs of decreasing, and a U.S. government who is all too keenly aware of the importance of P.R. and "spin" in assuring continued popular support for the conflict.

    No events can be conveniently placed into a historical box; likewise, there is much we can learn about our mistakes of the past. I hope I am wrong, but I see many of the same things happening in Iraq. And at this point, I am not seeing a pleasant end to this conflict, regardless of what the Bush administration would like us to believe.

  6. #50
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Ngo Dinh Diem beat Bao Dai in the 1955 South Vietnamese elections. Subsequently Diem, with U.S. support, refused to allow South Vietnam to take place in the 1956 nationwide election agreed upon as part of the 1954 Geneva Accords, which Ho Chi Minh would have won handily.

    IMO the "lesson" of Vietnam is that eventually other countries control their own destinies, no matter how hard we try to stack the deck. Vietnam wanted what Ho Chi Minh was selling (Vietnamese nationalism). Eventually, through a deluge of blood, it got it. We'll see what Iraq wants. Let's hope radical Islam doesn't top the list. Because the Iraqis live there and we don't and they can wait us out.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  7. #51
    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Very true.

  8. #52
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966
    I'd like to know why we had to see pictures of Sen. Hillary Clinton every 5 mintues? Seriously. What has she done in her time in the Senate to get her mug on the screen every 5 minutes during the S-of-the-U Address? I know the she was first lady, but I also know that you do not get elected to that job. .
    I have no idea why the networks focused on Hilary but that's the media. But regarding your question about what she's accomplished in the senate- if you're a New Yorker, quite a bit. She is the first New York senator to serve on the Armed Services Committee, and has voted for every defense
    appropriation since arriving in the Senate in 2001, backing new Bush
    weapons systems and focusing her critique of Bush's Iraq tactics on an
    inadequate deployment of troops. All of her liberal agenda has taken a
    back seat to guarding against the next 9/11 attack in NYC. She has
    successfully secured two large federal grants to clean up the toxic
    waste left by 9/11 in lower Manhattan and has obtained post 9/11
    asbestos cleanup there. Even then The funds that were allocated for clean up did not get to the folks who needed it until Hillary stepped in on their behalf. She has received an "A" rating on the websight
    of the 9/11 families and has secured $16 mill in federal funds to
    study post (9/11 problems in New York. She has fought dilligently to
    prevent post 9/11 pork programs from diverting funds away from NYC to
    other states where there is no threat. Even the reactionary New York Post has agreed that Hillary has done a hell of a job securing homeland and
    reconstruction aid for this city.

    I don't think Hillary will ever get the presidential nomination but
    thats fine with me because I like her just fine as my senator.

  9. #53
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    Re: State of the Union

    I thought there wasn't much asbestos there due to the asbestos legislation having been passed prior to the trade centers going up. In fact I thought engineers thought there was a possibilty the towers might not have collapsed had asbestos been present. I suppose the surrounding buildings could have had plenty of it though.
    4009



  10. #54
    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by ochre
    I thought there wasn't much asbestos there due to the asbestos legislation having been passed prior to the trade centers going up. In fact I thought engineers thought there was a possibilty the towers might not have collapsed had asbestos been present. I suppose the surrounding buildings could have had plenty of it though.
    Yes, I believe the Deutsche Bank Building has quite a bit of it. It was severely damaged on 9/11 and will have to come down, but the EPA has fears about the release of asbestos into the air as a result of it.

  11. #55
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    Re: State of the Union

    yeah, I think the standard practice is to seal asbestos in rather than try to take it out these days. Tearing one down sort of precludes encasement I guess
    4009



  12. #56
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis

    BTW, the election turnout was actually 60%. To contrast, in 1967, Vietnam held an election under threats of violence and reprisals from the VC. The turnout then was 80%, and the U.S. celebrated it as a victory of democracy in the face of threatened tyranny. And lo, a mere 8 years later, we were piloting the last helicopter out of Saigon as the city fell to VC forces, 58,000 dead Amercians later.

    Similarities, anyone?
    Absolutely amazing. Liberals' hatred for George W. Bush is so strong that anything, ANYTHING AT ALL, will be spun until it can look bad for the president. The fact that you can try and throw a wet towel on the wonderful news from Iraq this week is, quite frankly, disgusting.

    Turn off the Al Jazeera and join us in 2005.

    Thank God we have four more years of Bush!
    Last edited by Reds/Flyers Fan; 02-03-2005 at 06:40 PM.

  13. #57
    Member CougarQuest's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Reds/Flyer Fan
    Read your PM's
    Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

  14. #58
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    Re: State of the Union

    I thought Bush made an outstanding speech. But since I support most of his initiatives, it wasn't too surprising. Similarly, it isn't surprising to hear how much his enemies hated it. But what is encouraging is that many are saying they are more likely to support his policies as a result of the State of the Union last night. Kudos George. :gac:



    Poll: Bush wins converts among speech-watchers

    (CNN) -- President Bush's State of the Union address raised support for his policies on health care and Social Security among people who watched the speech, according to a CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll conducted Wednesday night.

    The percentage of respondents who said the president's proposals in those areas will help the country rose 15 points from when the same question was asked of the same people in the two days before the speech.

    In the post-speech sample, 70 percent of respondents said Bush's policies on health care were positive, while 66 percent approved of the president's plan for Social Security.

    Bush showed almost as much improvement on Iraq, with 78 percent of respondents saying U.S. policy there is heading in the right direction, a 12 percentage point increase over pre-speech polling. Overall, 77 percent of respondents said Bush is taking the country in the right direction after the speech compared to 67 percent beforehand.

    The strong positives for the president's policies may in part be a reflection of the poll's sample. Of the 485 people surveyed, 52 percent identified themselves as Republicans, 25 percent as Democrats and 22 percent as independents. The poll was done by telephone interviews and has a margin of error of plus or minus 5 percentage points.

    Respondents still said Iraq was the most important issue facing the president and the nation in the coming year -- 30 percent, compared with 23 percent for terrorism. Social Security was the top domestic issue, with 19 percent of respondents saying it should be the government's main focus.

    Overall, Bush got very positive or positive reactions to his speech from 86 percent of respondents, his best numbers since the State of the Union address he gave January 29, 2002 -- just four-and-a-half months after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 -- when 94 percent of those polled gave him positive marks.

  15. #59
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    Re: State of the Union

    Of the 485 people surveyed, 52 percent identified themselves as Republicans, 25 percent as Democrats and 22 percent as independents.
    Why didn't they just restrict the sample to white, born-again Texans?
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

  16. #60
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    I didn't see the entire address, but in one of my now three jobs, i work as a master control operator for our local PBS affilliate. The projections he stated about SS should have everyone that heard it scared.

    Except for me of course. See Amarillo College (the school I work for in the daytime) opted out of SS in the early 80's. Instead we have an investment plan, which we are not allowed access to, but are fully vested in from the first day of work. 6% of my gross salary, matched by 5.75% by the college is invested. I have worked here 5 years now, and have a pretty good retirement plan going. That's in addition to our Teacher retirement plan. In total nearly 20% of my gross salary is invested each month. Yeah, I lost money in 2000-2003. But the trend of the stock market is and always has been up, regardless of dips, spikes and crashes.

    So why would i want the government to manage the money I earn?

    I'm not a liberal.
    I'm not a conservative.

    I'm pro choice.
    I'm pro death penalty.

    I think there should be incredibly massive amounts of funding thrown at educators, the noblest most underpaid profession of all.
    I think a parent should be able to choose his/her child's school.

    I think helping to bring democracy, even the idea of democracy to Iraq is a noble idea.
    I think we need an exit plan asap.

    I'm not gay.
    I have gay friends.
    I'm pro gay marriage because there is no reason to be against it.
    Gay isn't a choice. It isn't a lifestyle. It isn't abhorrent. it's different. and if you are gay, it is perfectly normal. it is who you are, not what you do.

    My point is both parties have excellent ideas for the future of this country. and both have incredibly stupid ones as well.

    But if I were not in the position I'm in now, If I still paid SS taxes, I'd be worried about the future of SS. I heard no details on how to fix it, just that it's future was bleak.

    It's time to try something else, what we have isn't working.
    Suck it up cupcake.


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