Congrats to the NFL...

[Mutaman]

[QUOTE=MWM]What happened to Brett Favre after Holmgren left? He's not been the same QB since, although he's still very good. Quote)


Actually ,overall Brett's stats since 1998 have been comparible to his stats during the Holmgin years. Granted he reached his peak in 1995 and 1996 under Holmgrin but I think thats more an effect of him peaking as an athelete than who his coach is. Indeed Brett's rating this year is better than any year under Holmgin prior to 1995, and certainly better than his last year under Holmgrin
(92.4 vs 87.8).

Indeed when you look at Holmgrin's record since leaving Green Bay, its pretty obvious that Holmgrin misses Favre a lot more than Favre misses Holmgrin.

Also, if you've got a problem with media hype, take advantage of it. The line is based in part on hype so use that to your advantage. For example when New England played the Colts, I felt the line was out of wack because of overhyped Peyton. I took the Patriots and cleaned up big time.

[SteelSD]

I think Jaworski knows full well who Brett Favre is: Jaworski held the record for most consecutive games played at quarterback until Brett broke it.

Ok. Great?

What's next? Gonna tell us that Ron Jaworski ranks higher on the all-time QB list than Manning?

Peyton Manning scares the pants off every team he plays. Bill Bellichek is the only person on the Patriots sideline who's capable of doing that.

That's pretty much discussion over.

[GAC]

How well did the Pats' defense shut down the Eagles running game?

And I acknowledged that. That is the defenses job (and they do it quite superbly). But it's the offense's job (primarily) to put points on the board. A defense's superb effort is wasted if the offense cannot score (i.e. Ravens for example).

The Pats were 4-12 on 3rd down on Sunday. Did Brady forget how to be great 8 times out of 12?

I give more credit to the Eagles defense, which was #9 in the NFL, then I do a knock on Brady. Andy Reid is no slouch either, and this was the Super Bowl of the two best teams in the NFL.

But it's a huge compliment to Brady that he was able to answer any Philly scores, keep his poise, and answer with their own drives and scores. Do I give him all the credit? Of course not. But many, including myself, consider the QB the "brains" behind the excecution of that offense. There is an awful lot on that QB's shoulders as compared to the other players on that field. Not only do you have to execute on offense, but you have to know and be able to react to the defense and their various shifts/schemes being thrown at you primarily.

But compare what Brady did with what McNabb did. McNabb may have thrown for more yardage; but he didn't seem to keep his poise when it was needed. What I like about Brady is that he may not be a "flashy" QB, or like a Manning (statiscally); but he doesn't make mistakes, or at least fewer mistakes then his opposition. He comes through when he has to a vast majority of the time.

I'm all for giving credit where credit is due. But why credit one player for the success of an entire team? Why elevate one player to hero status while ignoring all the other factors that go into a championship team?

I don't think anyone on here is giving Brady ALL the credit for the team's success. Of course it's a team effort. So why all the hype about Manning this year then? Would he have been so good if not for those linemen blocking and solid receivers?

But elevating star players has always been the norm in all sports (and in life in general). Whether you are talking Babe Ruth, Johnny Unitas, or whoever. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Look at the singular attention that Namath got when they beat the Colts.

People like their heroes, and there is nothing wrong with that IMO.

Maybe we all need to break out into a chorus of Tina Turner's "We Don't Need Another Hero"

WE DON`T NEED ANOTHER HERO
WE DON`T NEED TO KNOW THE WAY HOME
ALL WE WANT IS LIFE BEYOND
THUNDERDOME

:MandJ: :MandJ:

[Mutaman]

Ok. Great?

What's next? Gonna tell us that Ron Jaworski ranks higher on the all-time QB list than Manning?

Peyton Manning scares the pants off every team he plays. Bill Bellichek is the only person on the Patriots sideline who's capable of doing that.

That's pretty much discussion over.

Well that's not exactly true, In 2002 the New York Jets , with Herman Edwards as their coach, not Bill Bellichek, beat the Colts with Peyton Manning in the playoffs, 41-0. Of course Bellicheck has knocked Manning out of the playoffs just as easily the last two years. I bet against Manning on all three occassions and cashed on all three occasions. Do you see a trend there?

Nobody is arguing how good a quarteback Ron Jaworski was, just that he played the position with some success and clearly has some knowledge on the subject. Just because he works for ESPN does not detract from that knowledge. Francessa and Russo from WFAN, as well as Peter King from SI, rank Jaworski, along with Simms, second only to Madden as a television pro football analyst.

Finally, your unsupported statement that Manning "scares the pants off every team he plays", does not end the discussion.

[GAC]

Finally, your unsupported statement that Manning "scares the pants off every team he plays", does not end the discussion.

I'd say he does with most teams; but obviously not every team. He definitely can be brought down to earth very easily when he plays outside and in inclimate weather (it's his kryptonite ).

[Mutaman]

I'd say he does with most teams; but obviously not every team. He definitely can be brought down to earth very easily when he plays outside and in inclimate weather (it's his kryptonite ).

Ok I'll go along with that. Bear in mind I have a real predjudice agaist teams that play in a dome. I hate it, I don't think its the same game. And I hate seeing the records achieved by QBS and kickers in a dome compared with records of those who play outdoors.

[paintmered]

Muta,

The one place where I think you fall short in your argument is the absense of defense in your comparisons. It's really simple: New England has a steller defense, Indy does not.

Even this past sunday. The Pats defense dictated that game the whole 60 minutes and forced 4 turnovers. The point is, with a defense like this, Brady isn't forced to carry a team on his back. He does have the ability to carry the team when he has to, but not once does he feel the need to force a throw. If nothing is there, he can throw it away and know his defense will get him the ball back.

Brady excells at what is expected of him - he's the team leader and asked to not make mistakes. He makes excellent decisions out there. But if you were to subtract Brady and insert an average QB, New England would still be a 12 win team.

On the other hand, players like Manning or Vick are forced to carry the team. It's easy to see the difference in seasons Atlanta had between last year and this year with the main difference being Michael Vick. If you subtract Manning and Vick from the Colts and Falcons respectively, all of a sudden you've got a pair of 4-win teams.

[Mutaman]

Paitmered-

You make good points, and obviously defense is key. Hell, I'm a Packer fan so tell me about it. But speculating about what would happen if Brady played on the Colts or Manning played on Boston, doesn't convince me of anything. I can only go on facts, which are that Brady has done whatever is necessary to win three world championships and Manning falls flat on his face in the playoffs each year. Manning could only manage 3 points against the Patriot defense and played the entire game looking like a deer caught in the headlights. His body language was unbelievable. On the other hand Brady, even though he didn't play one of his best games, put up 24 points against the Eagles, one of the best defenses in the league. And I'm sure you'd agree that Manning's supporting cast on offense is as good if not better than Brady's. Despite a superlative offense Manning could only manage 3 points against the Pats this year, 14 last year, and was totally humiliated by an average Jet team in 2002. Brady on the other hand hardly ever makes a mistake (the lowest turnover % in history), consistently makes the big play, and now has 3 rings. He's the Bart Starr of the present, and the fact that Bart was supported by a pretty good defense ( six Hall of Famers) didn't dieminish his accomplishments either.

[paintmered]

Paitmered-
Manning could only manage 3 points against the Patriot defense and played the entire game looking like a deer caught in the headlights. His body language was unbelievable.

There is one way to stop Manning and that is to pressure him. Dropping 6 and 7 into pass coverage is going to result in him shredding any defense. However, if you can force him on his heels, he will make poor decisions like he did in all those playoff games. It is times like these when Brady throws the ball into the 3rd row and Manning tries to make a play because if he doesn't, there isn't anybody on that team that will. But if anything, this is a testament to the offensive line of NE for giving Brady time and the defensive front 7 for forcing pressure. You make Brady play on crutches and he'd still be effective because he's got all day in the pocket.

In my opinion, there's one way Indy will beat you - passing. NE can win through the running game, defense, special teams and then they can win with a passing game. If you shut down Brady, there are so many more ways for this team to win. Taking Manning out the game results in those 41-0 blowouts.

This NE parallels the national championship OSU football team from a few years ago. Get a QB that makes good decisions coupled with a dominating defense and superior special teams and you aren't going to lose.

[SteelSD]

Well that's not exactly true, In 2002 the New York Jets , with Herman Edwards as their coach, not Bill Bellichek, beat the Colts with Peyton Manning in the playoffs, 41-0. Of course Bellicheck has knocked Manning out of the playoffs just as easily the last two years. I bet against Manning on all three occassions and cashed on all three occasions. Do you see a trend there?

I see two trends there:

1. Teams with mediocre defenses tend to not fare very well in the playoffs
2. You're a compulsive sports gambler

Neither has anything to do with how good Peyton Manning is.

Nobody is arguing how good a quarteback Ron Jaworski was, just that he played the position with some success and clearly has some knowledge on the subject. Just because he works for ESPN does not detract from that knowledge. Francessa and Russo from WFAN, as well as Peter King from SI, rank Jaworski, along with Simms, second only to Madden as a television pro football analyst.

Oh gee. 2nd to John Madden. Gee. What a thrill that must be.

Finally, your unsupported statement that Manning "scares the pants off every team he plays", does not end the discussion.

What ends the discussion is that every team that plays the Colts MUST gameplan to stop Peyton Manning. It's not optional. It is with Brady because he's a supporting cast member- not the driving force that truly great QB's have demonstrated themselves to be. To beat the Patriots, you must beat Belichek- not Brady. Because beating Belichek beats Brady. Period.

THAT ends the discussion, regardless of what those who consider John Madden the best football mind on the planet might think.

[Mutaman]

I see two trends there:

1. Teams with mediocre defenses tend to not fare very well in the playoffs
2. You're a compulsive sports gambler

Neither has anything to do with how good Peyton Manning is.

Why "compulsive" ? Like any good sportsbettor I just look for the overlays, and going against Peyton in a big game is as good an overlay as you will find.

[MWM]

Like any good sportsbettor I just look for the overlays, and going against Peyton in a big game is as good an overlay as you will find.

Nah, but betting in favor of Belichek in a big game is a good one. BTW, how is a wild card playoff game where if you lose you go home NOT a big game?

[Mutaman]

Nah, but betting in favor of Belichek in a big game is a good one. BTW, how is a wild card playoff game where if you lose you go home NOT a big game?

Not always true. If you bet in favor of Belichek in the Super Bowl you lost. The line was 7 and the Pats did not cover. Even though nobody gets rich betting against Brady, my feeling was that the Eagles were underated because they were from the NFC and that McNabb would keep it close. (See "Put up or Shut up" thread). McNabb was disappointing, but thanks to the great efforts of TO and the Pat's conservative play, the Eagles were able to cover.

And I'm not going to give kudos to Manning and the Colts for beating Denver in their cozy dome. Not a big game, not much of an accomplishment.

[SteelSD]

Why "compulsive" ? Like any good sportsbettor I just look for the overlays, and going against Peyton in a big game is as good an overlay as you will find.

Yeah. Whether or not his defense is any good doesn't factor into it.

That's not a "good" bettor. That's the behavior of a bettor who drastically oversimplies things. And that bettor is a bettor who's luck will eventually catch up to him.

[SteelSD]

Not always true. If you bet in favor of Belichek in the Super Bowl you lost. The line was 7 and the Pats did not cover. Even though nobody gets rich betting against Brady, my feeling was that the Eagles were underated because they were from the NFC and that McNabb would keep it close. (See "Put up or Shut up" thread). McNabb was disappointing, but thanks to the great efforts of TO and the Pat's conservative play, the Eagles were able to cover.

And I'm not going to give kudos to Manning and the Colts for beating Denver in their cozy dome. Not a big game, not much of an accomplishment.

Ah. So you're not giving credit to Manning for beating Denver (or KC on the road) in a loser-goes-home matchup.

Right. Sure. Yeah. I'd love to see you in a locker room. "Hey guys! Nothing big about this one! Just sleepwalk through it!!"

Yet you keep bringing up "9-0" in defense of Brady when the Oakland victory during their first playoff run shouldn't have been and he got knocked out of the Pitt game that year (Bledsoe coming in was a huge pickup for the Pats in that game).

BTW, name the starting QB of the only team to miss the playoffs the season between two Super Bowl victories. Who is that?

When Manning wins, it's you attempting to discredit. When Brady "wins", it's all about Brady.

Sorry, but you were way on the wrong side of the logic curve to begin with and you're venturing further and further in the wrong direction.