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Thread: Grade the offseason.

  1. #61
    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: Grade the offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    "I know how typical grades work. But baseball isn't a typical situation."

    Okay...

    But instead of stretching credulity, why not try to approach something that resembles a consensus of criteria.

    What if I decided that the only criterion that matters is "dollars spent?"

    I'd be free to do that--give the Reds an "A" and a big ole "gO Rdz!!!" But I'd be stupid for arriving at that conclusion.

    I'm just not sure I understand the logic that D connotes improvement, that's all. It's always meant regression to me (and virtually the universe). Now if your argument is that by not signing Dunn, the Reds have countervailed all other moves this offseason, and so deserve a "D" then fine. But that takes some pretty tortuous logic, seeing that Dunn'll still be suiting up in red and black this season.
    In my college program, 'D' was essentially a failing grade. No one who scored a D on an exam thought they were improving in the least. Indeed, you're barely learning the material, if at all.

    I really don't see how you can grade the offseason at less than a C. They filled every position, brought in some proven talent, re-signed their best starter from last season...that is not a 'D' offseason.

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  3. #62
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    Re: Grade the offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    I bet he and his agent would not have "refused" had the dollar figure caught their eye. Eh?
    Then the people complaining about the Milton contract would be complaining that the team overspent on Dunn.

    Damned if you do...etc.

  4. #63
    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
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    Re: Grade the offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis
    re-signed their best starter from last season

    Faint praise.
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

  5. #64
    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
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    Re: Grade the offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis
    Then the people complaining about the Milton contract would be complaining that the team overspent on Dunn.

    Damned if you do...etc.
    I would never do that. In my opinion, he's the best bet out there, and it's almost impossible to overspend on him.

    Let's see....Would I rather have a pitcher with a career 4.76 ERA, or a young slugger with near Ruthian potential?

    That's a reeeeel toughy.
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

  6. #65
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    Re: Grade the offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by XRedsfan07
    Of course they will. All the nay sayers will become the guys saying "I told you signing Randa/Milton/Aurilia/etc. would pay off"
    That doesn't happen on this board.

    That's how sports goes. You've the eternal optamists, the eternal pesamists, and the fair weather fan.
    A mother who couldn't handle her twin toddlers brought them into the local psychiatrist for help with their behavior.

    The doctor asked the mother what the problem was...

    "Well," said the young lady, "It seems I have two completely opposite issues. Bobby is full of fear and always thinks the worst thing possible will happen to him. He's impossible to cheer up and cries constantly."

    "I see..." the Doctor replied, "...so what seems to be the issue with the other child?"

    "That's the thing!" exclaimed the exasperated mother, "Johnny is just the opposite. He's so happy and bright that he doesn't think anything will EVER go wrong. He's not scared of anything and I fear that he'll harm himself if he's not careful."

    "That is quite a unique problem, young lady." the Doctor replied, "However, I think I have JUST the thing to cure each of them."

    First, the doctor took Bobby, the pessimistic child, into a room completely filled with toys.

    "With this many toys around, your child will be forced to play and play and in two days time will be completely cured. He'll be as happy and as playful as a little boy should." explained the Doctor.

    "And what will you do to help my overly-optimistic son, Johnny?" the mother inquired.

    "Well, this may seem extreme, but we find that in cases like this facing the worst possible is most conducive to curing the mental affliction. Therefore, we will be placing Johnny in a room filled with heaping piles of horse manure and there he will stay for the next 48 hours." the Doctor explained.

    After 48 hours, the Doctor escored the anxious young mother to the room full of toys so that they may see how the pessimistic little Bobby was progressing.

    Upon opening the door, both onlookers were taken aback as Bobby was crying and huddled in the corner of his room where he'd carved out a small niche among the toys.

    "Bobby! What's the matter???" asked the confused mother.

    "Mo..mo..mommy..." whimpered the small boy, "I tried to think nice thoughts like the doctor tod me too, but I know we don't have much money. If I'd have touched any of the toys and broken them, we'da hafta pay for them and then you, daddy, Johnny and I wouldn't have a place to live!!!"

    Horrified, the mother ran to the adjacent room where her overly optimistic son was trapped in the middle of hundreds of pounds of horse manure.

    "Johnny!!! JOHNNY!!! Are you all right!?!?" yelled the mother.

    "MOMMY!!!" replied little Johnny while laughing and throwing fistfulls of horse manure in the air, "THIS IS THE BEST EVER!!!!!!! Thank you SO much for bringing me here!!!"

    "Oh no...no..." the mother muttered with her head in her hands, "Johnny...do you know what all the stuff in this room is?"

    "Oh YES!!!" exclaimed the excited little boy, "It's HORSE POOP!!! And with this much horse poop, it's only a matter of time before I find the PONY!!!!!!!!"

    ***

    The moral of this story?

    When facing nothing but horse manure, the expectation of finding a pony isn't "optimism". It's insanity.

    But then hey, you probably figure I'm the one thinking that all the toys are going to break should I touch them. That's not reality either.

    While we're busy labeling and neatly categorizing fan types, does the word "realist" work into your equation too? Or is that a pony you don't think exists?
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

  7. #66
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    Re: Grade the offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis
    Then the people complaining about the Milton contract would be complaining that the team overspent on Dunn.

    Damned if you do...etc.
    Very doubtful, I wouldn't.

    But I don't allow myself to believe that any sort of agreement isn't without it's pratfalls for both sides, and as sound business goes an argument could be made by both to why a LT deal hasn't been done at this time and it usually involves layers of stuff that never makes Hal McCoys Sunday rundown of recent Reds and baseball news.

  8. #67
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    Re: Grade the offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    Very doubtful, I wouldn't.

    But I don't allow myself to believe that any sort of agreement isn't without it's pratfalls for both sides, and as sound business goes an argument could be made by both to why a LT deal hasn't been done at this time and it usually involves layers of stuff that never makes Hal McCoys Sunday rundown of recent Reds and baseball news.
    To sign Dunn LT is going to take something very similar to what it took to sign Junior long term. And w eknow how people felt about that.

    I'm not necessarily saying it's be bad to sign Dunn LT--quite the opposite. But the Reds will never make a move that some people won't find offensive. Doesn't matter who it is, or at what price.

  9. #68
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    Re: Grade the offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    But instead of stretching credulity, why not try to approach something that resembles a consensus of criteria.

    What if I decided that the only criterion that matters is "dollars spent?"

    I'd be free to do that--give the Reds an "A" and a big ole "gO Rdz!!!" But I'd be stupid for arriving at that conclusion.

    I'm just not sure I understand the logic that D connotes improvement, that's all. It's always meant regression to me (and virtually the universe). Now if your argument is that by not signing Dunn, the Reds have countervailed all other moves this offseason, and so deserve a "D" then fine. But that takes some pretty tortuous logic, seeing that Dunn'll still be suiting up in red and black this season.
    Well, maybe it's just me FCB, but standing in place certainly doesn't get you anywhere. Not sure in what class you were given a "C" for non-starting.

    Each offseason is an opportunity to produce a championship-caliber ball club. Period. Do little to nothing to improve your club to to a playoff level ballclub and you don't get a sniff of a B or an A from me. Do only that which would produce an outside chance at finishing .500 and you don't get a C from me either.

    It appears you think everyone had the same assignment this offseason and thus should be graded as such. I wholeheartedly disagree with that methodology. And no, I don't really care that the Reds' "assignment" was more difficult than the Cardinals'.

    Very simply, the Reds didn't do enough to get where they needed to be. The offseason wasn't a failure IMHO, but it wasn't enough to pass the course either.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

  10. #69
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    Re: Grade the offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    I bet he and his agent would not have "refused" had the dollar figure caught their eye. Eh?
    And what dollar figure is that?

  11. #70
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    Re: Grade the offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by wheels
    Faint praise.
    considering that in the past they would let him take a walk for nothing, then I think the fact that they re-upped Wilson for two years IS a big deal. Hopefully it signals a turning point in the way, financially, this franchise is run.

    I think a lot of people are grading this team as if they had the financial backing/spending history of the Yankees. As far as REDS offseasons go, this is one of the better ones.

  12. #71
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    Re: Grade the offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis
    To sign Dunn LT is going to take something very similar to what it took to sign Junior long term. And w eknow how people felt about that.

    I'm not necessarily saying it's be bad to sign Dunn LT--quite the opposite. But the Reds will never make a move that some people won't find offensive. Doesn't matter who it is, or at what price.
    Problem with your logic is that you think that the same people who don't like bad moves also don't like good moves.

    That's not the way it works around here.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

  13. #72
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    Re: Grade the offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD
    Problem with your logic is that you think that the same people who don't like bad moves also don't like good moves.

    That's not the way it works around here.
    I didn't mean "the same people" in a literal sense. I've stated my logic quite clearly--there are ALWAYS people who will find a reason to complain about a move the team makes. ALWAYS.

    I have an idea how things work around here...it's not too hard to figure out.

  14. #73
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    Re: Grade the offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by iammrred
    And what dollar figure is that?
    Probably ten million a year for 5-6 years. Which would have been ideal, imo.

    The Reds would get a great player's salad days before playing with 6'6'' (not a svelte 6'6" at that) on those knees renders him a DH.

  15. #74
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
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    Re: Grade the offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis
    I didn't mean "the same people" in a literal sense. I've stated my logic quite clearly--there are ALWAYS people who will find a reason to complain about a move the team makes. ALWAYS.

    I have an idea how things work around here...it's not too hard to figure out.
    Oh, if you mean that some folks will complain about anything or that other folks will complain about some stuff but not complain about other stuff? Yep.

    There are even folks who constantly complain about "complainers". Really. No kidding. There are actually folks on this board that find non-pie-in-the-sky baseball talk so offensive that they'll complain about people. I know. Hard to believe, isn't it?

    Oh, and they're generally the same folks who start the "Reds/Player X Sucks" posts around late July after ranting and raving about "negativity" all offseason.

    Yep. Again, no kidding!
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

  16. #75
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    Re: Grade the offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD
    Well, maybe it's just me FCB, but standing in place certainly doesn't get you anywhere. Not sure in what class you were given a "C" for non-starting.

    Each offseason is an opportunity to produce a championship-caliber ball club. Period. Do little to nothing to improve your club to to a playoff level ballclub and you don't get a sniff of a B or an A from me. Do only that which would produce an outside chance at finishing .500 and you don't get a C from me either.

    It appears you think everyone had the same assignment this offseason and thus should be graded as such. I wholeheartedly disagree with that methodology. And no, I don't really care that the Reds' "assignment" was more difficult than the Cardinals'.

    Very simply, the Reds didn't do enough to get where they needed to be. The offseason wasn't a failure IMHO, but it wasn't enough to pass the course either.

    For the record, I gave them a C-, with my logic being that tying up a lot of money in mediocre players would preclude moves at the deadline (in the hopes they stick around in a weak--and it is weak--division). In other words, they have expensively run in place. Net deduction, but a minor one.


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