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Thread: Alan Keyes Disowns His Daughter

  1. #61
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: Alan Keyes Disowns His Daughter

    God breathed the Word and men wrote it down, using their own personality and writing style, but the words penned were exactly what God intended to express, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God
    Then why does the Bible contradict itself so many times?

    I'm curious-who do you say Jesus Christ is?
    A guy who had quite a few good ideas. Beyond that is conjecture really. What you and I believe probably aren't as different as you think, but I know that religion has been used to manipulate people for literally ever. To believe that the Bible wasn't influenced by man is to ignore that, in my opinion.

    I also think that the Timothy verse might be the best example of circular reasoning that I've ever seen.

    "The Bible is infallible because the Bible says it's infallible."

    I mean seriously folks, it's fine to have faith in God, but you don't have to check your critical thinking at the door.
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  3. #62
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: Alan Keyes Disowns His Daughter

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    the Biblical position is pretty clear and it takes some hermeneutical gymnastics that any contortionist would be proud of to take any other postion than Scripture teaching that homosexuality is sexual immorality in any and all situations. It can never be anything else. Feel free to provide one Scripture verse that says otherwise.
    So the Scripture is wrong. Why is that such a huge leap in logic for so many people?
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Alan Keyes Disowns His Daughter

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful
    Then why does the Bible contradict itself so many times?



    A guy who had quite a few good ideas. Beyond that is conjecture really. What you and I believe probably aren't as different as you think, but I know that religion has been used to manipulate people for literally ever. To believe that the Bible wasn't influenced by man is to ignore that, in my opinion.

    I also think that the Timothy verse might be the best example of circular reasoning that I've ever seen.

    "The Bible is infallible because the Bible says it's infallible."

    I mean seriously folks, it's fine to have faith in God, but you don't have to check your critical thinking at the door.

    That isn't what the verse says. The verse says the Bible is infallible because it is "God-breathed," which is translated as inspired. God is infallible, the Scripture is the Word of God, therefore it is infallible. Doesn't seem circular at all to me.

    That also should answer your response to my post as well. The Scripture can't be wrong. It can be misinterpreted, but it can't be wrong. Also, all the "contradictions" can be explained with some of that good ole critical thinking you claim Christians who believe the Bible is inspired and infallible do not use. Perhaps do a google for "Bible difficulties" that I'm sure will explain some of the alleged contradictions you are concerned with.
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    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Alan Keyes Disowns His Daughter

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRed
    Dont you mean 2 Timothy 3:16?.
    yes, grrr. Thanks, wv red
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    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: Alan Keyes Disowns His Daughter

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    Being a Christian, I'm sure you are aware of I Timothy 3:16. That is a good summary of the basis for Scripture's inspiration and infallibility. It's inspiration ensures infallibility--God breathed the Word and men wrote it down, using their own personality and writing style, but the words penned were exactly what God intended to express, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God. In fact, I would consider that to be a non-negotiable essential for one to qualify as a believer. Using your own line of reasoning, since you are fallible, does it really matter if you personally find the Bible to be infallible?
    You can't use scripture to prove scripture--that is a circular argument. "I say I exist therefore I exist" is a fallacy. So simply because the Bible says it is infallible does not make it so.

    I think it would be helpful here to define "infallible". Webster's says:

    2 entries found for infallible.
    in·fal·li·ble ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-fl-bl)
    adj.
    Incapable of erring: an infallible guide; an infallible source of information.
    Incapable of failing; certain: an infallible antidote; an infallible rule.

    Thus, to apply "infallible" to the Bible, it means that it contains no errors and is 100% correct in all statements. Only that isn't the case. The sun did not stop revolving around the Earth, the Earth is older than 6,000 years, the Earth does not have 4 corners, there wasn't a flood that was 20 feet higher than Mt. Everest, etc. Also, man's interpretation of the Bible isn't infallible. Obviously, that has been proven many times.

    So, either God messed up in what he directed the writers to inscribe, or something got mixed up in the translation from God to man.

    Not sure what you mean by "the church" here, but the Biblical position is pretty clear and it takes some hermeneutical gymnastics that any contortionist would be proud of to take any other postion than Scripture teaching that homosexuality is sexual immorality in any and all situations. It can never be anything else. Feel free to provide one Scripture verse that says otherwise.
    The "church" in question would be the same "church" that provided scripture after scripture showing, what it believed, to be Biblical evidence that the Earth was flat and the center of the universe. "Show us a scripture that says otherwise!" was the church's response to those who questionned their position. Killing those who dared to contradict this statement was the other response.

    Now, again, since it has been shown that the Bible is, in fact, *not* infallible, and that the Church has, in its stated doctrine, misinterpreted and misapplied scriptures in the past, what makes the church's position on homosexuality infallible and beyond reproach?

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    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: Alan Keyes Disowns His Daughter

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    That isn't what the verse says. The verse says the Bible is infallible because it is "God-breathed," which is translated as inspired. God is infallible, the Scripture is the Word of God, therefore it is infallible. Doesn't seem circular at all to me.
    Do you really not see how that's circular? Honestly? The verse, which is in the Bible, is saying that the Bible is "God-breathed". Come on, admitting that's circular logic isn't going to make you an atheist or anything.

    And you're honestly saying that the Bible doesn't contradict itself in any way that can't be explained?
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  8. #67
    MarsArmyGirl RosieRed's Avatar
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    Re: Alan Keyes Disowns His Daughter

    I think Alan Keyes' statement here is pretty telling.

    Daughter of conservative Republican calls herself 'liberal queer'
    Tuesday, February 15, 2005 Posted: 1317 GMT

    ANNAPOLIS, Maryland (AP) -- The daughter of conservative Republican Alan Keyes referred to herself Monday as a "liberal queer" and urged support for gay and lesbian young people who have been deserted by their families.

    Maya Marcel-Keyes, 19, addressed a rally sponsored by the gay-rights group Equality Maryland, saying she was motivated to speak out because of her rocky relationship with her parents and the recent death of a friend who had fallen ill after being thrown out of the house by his family.

    Marcel-Keyes told several hundred supporters that her sexuality had created a rift in her relationship with her parents.

    "Things just came to a head. Liberal queer plus conservative Republican just doesn't mesh well," she said. "That was making my life a little bit turbulent."

    Later, Marcel-Keyes told CNN her parents "were not too pleased" when they learned she was a lesbian, but she said she loves them "very much, and they love me. They can't support my activities."

    Her father, the Republican candidate for the U.S. Senate in Illinois last year, created a stir in August when he said during an interview that homosexuality was "selfish hedonism" and that Vice President Dick Cheney's lesbian daughter was a sinner.

    In a statement issued Monday night, Keyes said: "My daughter is an adult, and she is responsible for her own actions. What she chooses to do has nothing to do with my work or political activities."

    Marcel-Keyes said she received an outpouring of support when disclosing her sexual orientation, but her friend did not.

    "Like me, he grew up queer in a conservative household," she said. But where she got hundreds of e-mails, offers of a place to stay and a college scholarship, "he'd been out there two years and had gotten nothing."

    "And the worst part is, he isn't the only one," Marcel-Keyes said.

  9. #68
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: Alan Keyes Disowns His Daughter

    I just read this:

    http://www.bluedonut.com/100jokes.htm

    And two jokes made me think of this thread:

    I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said "Stop! Don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. "Well, there's so much to live for!" "Like what?" "Well... are you religious?" He said yes. I said, "Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?" "Christian." "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant ? "Protestant." "Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?" "Baptist" "Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?" "Baptist Church of God!" "Me too! Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you reformed Baptist Church of God?" "Reformed Baptist Church of God!" "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off. (Emo Philips)
    Two ministers doing missionary work in the South Seas are captured by a tribe and tied to stakes. The chief says to them, "You have a choice – death, or ugga bugga." The first guy says, "Well, I guess ugga bugga." The chief shouts "UGGA BUGGA!" and 30 members of the tribe attack and sodomize the first missionary. The chief then asks the second minister, "Now you have a choice, death or ugga bugga." He says "well, my religion does not allow me to choose ugga bugga, so I suppose it must be death." The chief says, "Very well," and shouts "DEATH…BY UGGA BUGGA!"
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
    --Oscar Wilde

  10. #69
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Alan Keyes Disowns His Daughter

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful


    A guy who had quite a few good ideas. Beyond that is conjecture really. What you and I believe probably aren't as different as you think,
    I think that what you and I believe are more different than you think.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  11. #70
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: Alan Keyes Disowns His Daughter

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron
    I think that what you and I believe are more different than you think.
    Think what you wish. I don't really feel the need to publically go on about my private religious beliefs, and I know that we differ there, but you don't really know what I believe.
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
    --Oscar Wilde

  12. #71
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Alan Keyes Disowns His Daughter

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis
    You can't use scripture to prove scripture--that is a circular argument. "I say I exist therefore I exist" is a fallacy. So simply because the Bible says it is infallible does not make it so.

    I think it would be helpful here to define "infallible". Webster's says:

    2 entries found for infallible.
    in·fal·li·ble ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-fl-bl)
    adj.
    Incapable of erring: an infallible guide; an infallible source of information.
    Incapable of failing; certain: an infallible antidote; an infallible rule.

    Thus, to apply "infallible" to the Bible, it means that it contains no errors and is 100% correct in all statements. Only that isn't the case. The sun did not stop revolving around the Earth, the Earth is older than 6,000 years, the Earth does not have 4 corners, there wasn't a flood that was 20 feet higher than Mt. Everest, etc. Also, man's interpretation of the Bible isn't infallible. Obviously, that has been proven many times.

    So, either God messed up in what he directed the writers to inscribe, or something got mixed up in the translation from God to man.


    The "church" in question would be the same "church" that provided scripture after scripture showing, what it believed, to be Biblical evidence that the Earth was flat and the center of the universe. "Show us a scripture that says otherwise!" was the church's response to those who questionned their position. Killing those who dared to contradict this statement was the other response.

    Now, again, since it has been shown that the Bible is, in fact, *not* infallible, and that the Church has, in its stated doctrine, misinterpreted and misapplied scriptures in the past, what makes the church's position on homosexuality infallible and beyond reproach?
    Those are all nice opinions and shared by others, however, that does not make them so. The Bible does not claim the Earth is flat, that would be those sinful, fallen, fallible, finite men making conclusions and trying to make the Bible say something it doesn't say. I'm already in agreement with you on that. The Bible also does not speak directly to the Earth's age, either. Any opinion that says it does or it doesn't is based on inference, so there's sinful man tainting the infallible Word of God again. It's a real good thing gave us the Holy Spirit to help believers along with such matters, though. You have certainly understood the point that human beings' efforts alone are pitiful, at best.

    One final point, that Scripture is internally consistent and can be used to provide evidence of the historic Christian faith is something that is unique and helps to show why the Bible is divine, rather than human in origin.

    RF, I'll assume you didn't go to the trouble to search for explanations to your alleged "contradictions?" Yes, I believe that there is a reasonable explanation for each alleged contradiction because the Bible is internally consistent, as I mentioned above. Feel free to throw one of your supposed contradictions out there and I'll find a reasonable response to your conundrum.

    Finally, if you consider that circular logic, you have failed to understand the difference between infallibility and inspiration. Its a simple cause-effect relationship, whereby inspiration (which encompasses all of God's attributes, e.g. omnipotence, omiscience, holy) of the Word of God results in infallibility. Infallibility is just one attribute of God, so to claim that is circular reasoning is simply inaccurate. But then, if you get right down to the skinny of things, you could make the charge of circular reasoning with any claim made based on Scripture, since a believer believes that the Word of God is the Word of God because God says it is the Word of God.
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  13. #72
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: Alan Keyes Disowns His Daughter

    But then, if you get right down to the skinny of things, you could make the charge of circular reasoning with any claim made based on Scripture, since a believer believes that the Word of God is the Word of God because God says it is the Word of God.
    I guess that's where we differ. I don't believe the Bible is the Word of God. TR, this is totally off the subject, but do you believe that all non-Christians (i.e. those that don't accept Christ as their personal savior) will go to hell?

    Meaning Jews, Muslims, etc.?
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
    --Oscar Wilde

  14. #73
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: Alan Keyes Disowns His Daughter

    Redsfaithful, you are forgetting that logic and reason are not intrinsically part of faith. Actually, by its very meaning, faith requires leaving your logic and reasoning skills at the door. You are believing something without knowing it is true.

    It is not logical to believe that someone can raise from the dead. That is why it is such an important part of religion - to ask people to believe things they have never seen or know to be impossible is the whole key to measuring one's belief in religion.

    If the Biblical God were to forgive your sins and errors for simply believing something as simple as 1+1=2, there would be no real test of faith there. The test is believing in something that is seemingly impossible to show your love and belief in the power of the Almighty.

    Obviously you know how I feel, so I'm not saying I believe any of this, I'm just saying that trying to argue logically against a belief system that requires no logic at its very core is a daunting task indeed.

    I would think that Christians would not ever want to prove the resurrection, because by proving it there is no doubt, and where there is no doubt, there is fact and no faith.

    At that point, believing that Jesus rose from the dead is an afterthought, much like knowing that water is wet. There's no true test of faith in this.

    Christianity is interesting because there is not a person who has lived who understands the Trinity- just try getting someone to explain it sometime- yet they believe it. For some, that's the power of faith, and for others, it's the Achilles' heel of religion.
    If you're watchin' a parade, make sure you stand in one spot, don't follow it, it never changes. And if the parade is boring, run in the opposite direction, you will fast-foward the parade. --Mitch Hedberg

  15. #74
    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: Alan Keyes Disowns His Daughter

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    Those are all nice opinions and shared by others, however, that does not make them so. The Bible does not claim the Earth is flat,
    Isaiah 11:12: And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

    revelation 7:1: After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.

    Revelation 20:8: and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth–Gog and Magog–to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

    Sounds like the Bible says the Earth is flat to me.

    The Bible also does not speak directly to the Earth's age, either.
    Sure it does. The Earth and all its creation was made in six days. (those would be 24 hour periods, since the Bible does not make a mention of a day lasting any longer than that.) God made man on the 6th day. The first man was Adam. Follow the timeline of Adam, through the kings of Israel, through the birth of Jesus, through today, you get an Earth that is more or less 6,000 years old.

    Taken literally, the Bible is either very deceptive, or the creation story is meant to be taken allegorically. Either way, the concept that the Earth was created, from nothing to what we have now, in six calendar days is the only literal translation one can take from the Bible.

  16. #75
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Alan Keyes Disowns His Daughter

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful
    I guess that's where we differ. I don't believe the Bible is the Word of God. TR, this is totally off the subject, but do you believe that all non-Christians (i.e. those that don't accept Christ as their personal savior) will go to hell?

    Meaning Jews, Muslims, etc.?
    Yes, I believe that anyone that rejects Christ as Savior and Lord during their days on earth will be sent to Gehenna, Hades, Hell, place of eternal punishment, whatever you like to call it. There are many Scriptures to support this exclusive claim, but my favorite is Acts 4:12, which says something to the effect "that there is none other name under heaven whereby we must saved." I also like the Reformers "solas" as a nice tidy way of putting it, whereby we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Also, a reading of the Gospel of John would make this point in many places said in many different ways.
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