Alan Keyes Disowns His Daughter

[RollyInRaleigh]

It all comes down to a choice. God doesn't make any of us believe in him or his inspired, infallible word. We have the choice to accept or reject the message that goes out from the cross. To accept it means life everlasting. To reject it means eternal death. We all are invited. It isn't his wish that any should be separated from him. Not all will accept his invitation. Whatever the choice, all will be held accountable before his judgement throne and we all will be charged with our own personal choice throughout all eternity. No one can make anyone else believe if they don't want to. The word is presented for all to hear. At that point, it's up to the individual to work out his salvation through the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ, or face eternal death and separation from God. We all face choices every day that we live, but none so important as our eternal salvation. I'm confident in my choice in Jesus Christ.

[RedsBaron]

Exactly.

So why do some Christians insist that you will burn in hell unless you believe in God the same way they do?

A Christian shouldn't insist that anyone believe in God the same way he or she does; Jesus however said that unless you believed in Him you would not receive eternal life. Many reject that message and decide not to believe; I cannot change that.

[Puffy]

Here is the last I will say on all this.

The direct followers of Christ are the people who formed the Catholic Church. My church. The Church is not perfect and has done many, many questionable (and bad) things throughout history to solidify its place and to inflict its beliefs on others.

With that said, we don't believe only Christians will occupy heaven - faith plus works, which means a person who believes in God and does right as near as he can to God's word can make it into heaven.

And that excludes no one.

[RollyInRaleigh]

I would submit that folks read their Bibles, dilligently, and work out their own salvation through the Word of God through the divine leadership of the Holy Spirit.

I would submit that anyone involved in this thread read the book of II Peter and the second Chapter of Hebrews.

[traderumor]

Here is the last I will say on all this.

The direct followers of Christ are the people who formed the Catholic Church. My church. The Church is not perfect and has done many, many questionable (and bad) things throughout history to solidify its place and to inflict its beliefs on others.

With that said, we don't believe only Christians will occupy heaven - faith plus works, which means a person who believes in God and does right as near as he can to God's word can make it into heaven.

And that excludes no one.

Puffy, with all due respect to your Catholicism, it is not the Church to a Protestant believer as myself, so the Roman Catholic position on the issue of salvation carries only as much weight as it agrees with the Scriptures. Since the Scripture does not teach "faith plus works" (cf. Eph. 2:8-9 for starters), your representation of salvation according to the RCC (which I don't think is accurate) is of little consequence to those who will die without Christ.

Pedro, since you have not spelled out what you consider to be an illogical argument, I really can't much explain myself. I am comfortable that I have made reasoned, logical arguments for the Biblical principles under discussion here and will be glad to respond to a specific argument you consider illogical.

[Puffy]

Puffy, with all due respect to your Catholicism, it is not the Church to a Protestant believer as myself, so the Roman Catholic position on the issue of salvation carries only as much weight as it agrees with the Scriptures. Since the Scripture does not teach "faith plus works" (cf. Eph. 2:8-9 for starters), your representation of salvation according to the RCC (which I don't think is accurate) is of little consequence to those who will die without Christ.

And, once again, who said it had to carry any weight at all with you? I could care less what you think or believe and I'm not hoisting my position on you or anyone.

And the RCC church is more than that little blurp I wrote - we believe in a purgatory where you pay for sins, and - you know what, I'm not explaining anymore.

I don't care if its of consequence to you - its my religion and my faith. And don't tell me that MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH, after growing up Catholic, is not accurate - coming from a non-catholic thats rich. You're not in my mind and I used two sentences to talk about one aspect, I wasn't expounding on my whole faith - but thanks for your thoughts on the accuracy of my two sentences.

[DunnersGrl44]

God and Religion, are simply a state of mind. Religion has been changed and warped into so many different things that it's hard to tell what is true or false. Whatever anyone believes in is fine with them. But is it really worth while to argue about it. Believe what you want, believe in your perspective of "Heaven" and who knows what is right and what is wrong. Nobody can win when argueing about Religion. Nobody can even tell what heaven really is. And no one knows who will get in and who won't.

[traderumor]

And, once again, who said it had to carry any weight at all with you? I could care less what you think or believe and I'm not hoisting my position on you or anyone.

And the RCC church is more than that little blurp I wrote - we believe in a purgatory where you pay for sins, and - you know what, I'm not explaining anymore.

I don't care if its of consequence to you - its my religion and my faith. And don't tell me that MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH, after growing up Catholic, is not accurate - coming from a non-catholic thats rich. You're not in my mind and I used two sentences to talk about one aspect, I wasn't expounding on my whole faith - but thanks for your thoughts on the accuracy of my two sentences.

It doesn't. Nor did my response say it did, but I can read and Ephesians 2:8-9 are very problematic for a faith plus works system. I'm not sure why you are so upset at any critical statement of your belief system when you have joined many others in calling mine illogical, narrow, intolerant, unaccepting, not loving, etc. But I am of a mind to let folks fire away because I am confident that the historic Christian faith (of which the Roman church has been a part of, but never THE church) can withstand the heat. It won't wilt under the scrutiny of skeptics. I wonder why you are not so willing to let someone have at your system?

[RollyInRaleigh]

It's funny how that works, isn't it?

[paintmered]

I'm closing this thread because things have gotten too far off the original topic and things are getting too heated for my liking. You are welcome to start a new thread, but I'm taking this one out back and shooting it.


A reminder to everyone: Please be respectful of other posters, especially in discussions when the subject matter is potentially very personal and emotional.