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Thread: Episode IV: A New Hope

  1. #16
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Episode IV: A New Hope

    Hey, just because i lean conservative, doesn't mean i 'm an isolationist. Truth is lot's of guys that do the job i do are getting outsourced overseas. I happen to be lucky i work for the state or it could happen to me. In fact a year ago, it nearly did. An education is no guarantee, but i've never heard of someone being worse off because of it. You rarely see someone with a Bachelor's or Masters Degree stocking at Wal-Mart. Unless they are 90 of course.
    Suck it up cupcake.

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  3. #17
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    Re: Episode IV: A New Hope

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF
    Never once thought my life was the worst one ever. My sister's is worse.

    But as a teacher surely you understand the odds are better if you stay in school. And at some point even as a teenager you have to realize your future is in your own hands as much as it is in your surroundings.

    Sometimes it does take longer though. I was 24 before i realized it. And that late start has cost me. But if your PRIMARY source of income is from stocking at Wal-Mart, more than likely the blame can be placed on the face in your mirror.
    I get paid to teach at a community college. I volunteer in a work program--mostly to get people who have criminal records back to work. And let me tell you: prison time is a scarlet letter for people who want to get back and "do right."

    And to echo Rojo, not everyone wants to be IT, a teacher, or a doctor. But it doesn't mean those people need to be exploited.

  4. #18
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Episode IV: A New Hope

    What exploitation? How much should someone be paid to stock soap?

    Sometimes the "exploitation" is in the mind of the disgruntled worker. Oh but i must have cable, even though i only make $350 every two weeks.

    Really How much should the corporations pay? and how much of what they have to pay gets passed on to me as the consumer?

    BTW, accountant, vet, dental hygeine, nursing, drafting, mass communications, art-graphic design. all of these offer 1 year certificate programs. Not everyone can be a doctor. But most people can work for one, and if it's a choice between stocker and nurse, i think if you CHOOSE the latter, you get what you get.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  5. #19
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    Re: Episode IV: A New Hope

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF
    What exploitation? How much should someone be paid to stock soap?

    Sometimes the "exploitation" is in the mind of the disgruntled worker. Oh but i must have cable, even though i only make $350 every two weeks.

    Really How much should the corporations pay? and how much of what they have to pay gets passed on to me as the consumer?

    BTW, accountant, vet, dental hygeine, nursing, drafting, mass communications, art-graphic design. all of these offer 1 year certificate programs. Not everyone can be a doctor. But most people can work for one, and if it's a choice between stocker and nurse, i think if you CHOOSE the latter, you get what you get.
    Being given the opportunity to organize is a good step to avoiding exploitation. Ever heard of unpaid overtime? Keep your ears peeled.

    I dont' know how much should be passed on to the consumer--enough so that others can get a fair wage, I guess.

    How much should someone get paid to pick up your garbage? work the beat in your neighborhood? teach your kids and be responsible for them for 7-9 hours in a day?

    All important questions. The good thing is: humans have the last say on what that figure should be, not "markets."
    Last edited by Falls City Beer; 03-10-2005 at 11:05 PM.

  6. #20
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    Re: Episode IV: A New Hope

    The good thing is: humans have the last say on what that figure should be, not "markets."
    Humans *in control* who reap benefits from the market have the last say.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  7. #21
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Episode IV: A New Hope

    All important questions. The good thing is: humans have the last say on what that figure should be, not "markets."
    No they don't. the market always has the last say. believe that. In Dallas, my salary would be around $25-40K more per year. for the same job at the same size schools. and the cost of living while higher would certainly be offset by an increase that large.

    And how much should a teacher make? dunno, but i know they don't get paid nearly enough. Tenured professors on the other hand...

    But everything is connected. I Wal-Mart for example has to start paying all their stockers $10 per hour, and the cost of that drives everything up, then Wal-Mart recoups their loss at my expense. Milk goes up. Bread goes up. etc. etc.

    Now I (and the workers at wal-mart) have to buy less. The beauty of Wal-Mart is stuff is cheap. But when milk approaches $3.50 a gallon, well it's easy to drop $200 real quick at wally world. prices go up and that becomes $250.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not for exploiting workers with unpaid OT. My college is trying that in certain departments, And I think the state is looking at re-working OT period. But realistically if you decide to make wal-mart your career, you reap what you sow.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  8. #22
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    Re: Episode IV: A New Hope

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF
    No they don't. the market always has the last say. believe that. In Dallas, my salary would be around $25-40K more per year. for the same job at the same size schools. and the cost of living while higher would certainly be offset by an increase that large.

    And how much should a teacher make? dunno, but i know they don't get paid nearly enough. Tenured professors on the other hand...

    But everything is connected. I Wal-Mart for example has to start paying all their stockers $10 per hour, and the cost of that drives everything up, then Wal-Mart recoups their loss at my expense. Milk goes up. Bread goes up. etc. etc.

    Now I (and the workers at wal-mart) have to buy less. The beauty of Wal-Mart is stuff is cheap. But when milk approaches $3.50 a gallon, well it's easy to drop $200 real quick at wally world. prices go up and that becomes $250.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not for exploiting workers with unpaid OT. My college is trying that in certain departments, And I think the state is looking at re-working OT period. But realistically if you decide to make wal-mart your career, you reap what you sow.

    Yes, in the end, markets are driven by people. People who say "it's the markets!!!" and pull their Pontius Pilate "wash my hands of it" act are doing just that, assuaging their consciences. No, it's people who set the market.

    Now it's the liberal's turn to play pie in the sky, Horatio Alger. People can ALWAYS change the fates of economies and the working conditions therein. If, IF, they want to.

    It's a whole hell of a lot tougher to change the home (and I use that term very loosely) in which you grew up.

  9. #23
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Episode IV: A New Hope

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    It's a whole hell of a lot tougher to change the home (and I use that term very loosely) in which you grew up.
    Agreed. I could have easily taken the path of least resistance myself. several members of my family did. Of four kids, I was the only one to finish high school, and attend college. Consequently I make more than my siblings. I believe there is a connection there.

    At some point you have to look at the person you are, and compare thet to the person you want to be. The family you start relies on you being responsible enough to know that first and foremost you (the parent) are responsible for the quality of your life.

    Working at Wal-Mart is the path of least resistance. Not for everyone obviously. No one lives in a vacuum. But if you are 34 and working at wal-mart to support a family, then you messed up bad.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  10. #24
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Episode IV: A New Hope

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF
    . That global workforce will be necessary for the next great step our civilization takes, in improving our lives and exploring the next frontiers.
    The next frontier is greater downward pressure on American wages, if you like that.. It's already happening.

    Most of the earnings growth of American coorporations the past 4 years has been at the expense of labor. In short, the rich (CEOs) get richer while the middle class get poorer and have less opportunities.

    I hope it never happens you you TRF, but as soon as you lose a job to overseas outsourcing, I think you'll have a different perspective. It's happened to me twice.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  11. #25
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Episode IV: A New Hope

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF
    . You rarely see someone with a Bachelor's or Masters Degree stocking at Wal-Mart. Unless they are 90 of course.
    Actually, I know two guys that have masters in Computer Science working as stockers in Home Depot. Yeah, I guess they'll eventually work their way back up the food chain, but to tell the truth, I'm not it's going to be worthwhile for my kids to get a college degree by the time they're old enough to.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  12. #26
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Episode IV: A New Hope

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD
    Actually, I know two guys that have masters in Computer Science working as stockers in Home Depot. Yeah, I guess they'll eventually work their way back up the food chain, but to tell the truth, I'm not it's going to be worthwhile for my kids to get a college degree by the time they're old enough to.
    http://www.monster.com
    Suck it up cupcake.

  13. #27
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Episode IV: A New Hope

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF
    Again, until it happens to you or someone you care about, I expect you to be callous. That's typical of most Americans.

    Try being out of work in a market flooded with out of work IT people, when you have a family to support.
    The employers are looking for people with very specific skills. You just have to hope they're hiring in a niche that you know. Of course, it pays to have a broad base of knowledge, but it's still very tough.

    But, obviously, you've never experienced it. If you did, you wouldn't be so callous. And you wouldn't have the impression that it's easy to find an IT job now.

    Luckily, the market seems to have picked up a little bit from the 2-3 years ago when I was most recently outsourced. But it's still tough.

    Got to love these coorporations that staff up Americans to do all the initial hard development work. The Americans work 60-70 hours/week getting the product to work, and then they're all laid off while cheap Indians do the maintenance work..
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  14. #28
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Episode IV: A New Hope

    didn't mean to be callous, and i certainly didn't mean to offend you.

    I very nearly was outsourced 2 years ago. I'm fortunate that i work for a community college, and our board was so outraged at the notion, our president was forced to resign.

    2000, and the couple of years following the .com crash were tough for a lot of IT people. But things are looking better.

    However they have yet to outsource Nursing to India. which brings me back to the point. How much should someone that stocks soap make? how much of their life choice is the responsibility of the corporation? Yes, bad stuff happens to people with degrees. And while you know two guys stocking with Masters degrees, I'd be willing to bet they don't comprise 2% of the workforce.

    Moral of this story to me is: If you don't want a life of hard work for low wages and no benefits, stay in school.

    It boggles my mind that there can be an opposing view on this.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  15. #29
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    Re: Episode IV: A New Hope

    Sometimes you guys make it sound like college is an option for everyone. I came from a single parent household. My mom was a nurse. She made too much for me to qualify for aid, which wasn't much. I tried hard for work-study, but no deal. I would have washed dishes in the cafeteria for a break. I couldn't get one ...... not even for used books. Not poor enough for aid, not wealthy enough to get the education I could have had. I did O.K., but it was a pull myself up by the bootstraps journey.

    I went to college and ended up with a good career ...... but I'm smart enough and could have gone a heck of a lot further if I had more options at the time.

    I'm not whining, but I do think the middleman often falls through the cracks.
    Pots and Kettles

  16. #30
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    Re: Episode IV: A New Hope

    Quote Originally Posted by TeamCasey
    Sometimes you guys make it sound like college is an option for everyone. I came from a single parent household. My mom was a nurse. She made too much for me to qualify for aid, which wasn't much. I tried hard for work-study, but no deal. I would have washed dishes in the cafeteria for a break. I couldn't get one ...... not even for used books. Not poor enough for aid, not wealthy enough to get the education I could have had. I did O.K., but it was a pull myself up by the bootstraps journey.

    I went to college and ended up with a good career ...... but I'm smart enough and could have gone a heck of a lot further if I had more options at the time.

    I'm not whining, but I do think the middleman often falls through the cracks.
    TC, at this point, paying for education should not be an issue for anyone who wants to go to college. The requirement for getting student loans is the ability to fog a mirror when held closely to the nostrils.

    FCB has a very good point about some people not valuing education. There is a subculture in our society that not only does not value education, but actively distrusts it.

    We need to do a much better job of education. A part of this is to do a better job of stressing the value of education. Kids that are in school right now are bombarded with "don't drink and drive" and "don't smoke or do drugs." They are nearly programmed with that stuff. We need to add "must get an education." to that programming.

    I also think that vocational training should have a higher priority in our educational system. There are always going to be people who are not talented enough academically to go to college. Nothing wrong with that. However, they would be well served to learn a trade while in high school. Not many electricians, plumbers, mechanics, heavy machinery operators, etc. being outsourced to India, either.


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