Terri Schiavo

[GAC]

"Compassion and respect for the individual doesn't simply come from a monthly check received in the mail."

No, but in my experience money goes a heck of a lot further than good intentions. In order to teach people to fish, you gotta buy tackle, bait, extra line, a cap with an extralong to keep off the sun....
You get what I'm saying.

I'm not talking simply about good intentions. Good intentions means SQUAT if there is nothing behind it. Personal involvement means not only financial giving, but also giving of oneself in a variety of means to help that impoverished family. Ove the years I have had the extreme pleasure of working with a variety of talented church people from various areas of the state/nation, who use their individual abilities, and pool their talents/resources to help the poor...

buying groceries, helping with heating costs in winter, provide the materials and then organize the volunteers to do needed home improvements, setup and fund food programs for kids (using church facilites), put families up in your home when a disaster strikes, help out with rent/utilties, develop and run after school programs for their kids while they work, etc., etc., etc.

[GAC]

This one is DEEP and ya know...Christians can't stand my thoughts on this...and non-Christians can't believe I accuse them of being hypocrits...something most think is reserved only for those who profess a faith.

Ya see, I am confounded by the fact that some who follow Christ are in favor of the death penalty or in favor of war, etc.

Likewise I can't understand how some folks involved and engaged as social advocates or pro-peace/anti war can see little or nothing wrong with the slaughter of an unborn child...you see...both sides are in error and hypocritical to what they identify as their core purpose...it makes little sense to me.

You bring up some very good and valid points Marty. It was ony after I read a few articles on the validity of Christians supporting the death penalty that convinced me (and it used valid, sound Christian principles too). I'll see if I can't find those articles, and you let me know what you think.

When it comes to war, I deeply respect those that are pacifists. I believe that war originality is of man. And yet, throughout the O.T. God sanctioned/utilized war when it came to upholding what HE DEEMED (not man) to be righteous and good, and to punish the evil, the wickedness, and yes, godless. I can thoroughly understand why one who is a skeptic or non-believer though can have a hard time understanding or accepting this. But IMO, I think it comes down to not really understanding the total character and nature of God, that not only includes love, compassion, mercy, and forgiveness (those pleasant traits we love to hear abiut and emphasize); but also His holiness, righteousness, and justice (traits we like to deny or overlook).

I am of the thought that the word "Fundamentalist" has been hijacked. Now I know in the dictionary it talks about the religeous movement of ultra conservatives..but I ammore or less talking about the word "Fundamental" which is the essentials...the very foundations of anything...baseball drills, faith in Christ, Ala, Buddah, etc...the basics.

It has been "hijacked". There are some who have redefined i, and given it a label that comes no where near what a true fundamentalist is (as you state above). And it became even more misapplied after 9-11,a nd the label "fundamentalist" was given to the Muslim terrorists. That analogy with Christians in this country was even posted on here at one time. Totally wrong.

Too many times folks like Falwell and Robertson and any other flavor of the week evangelist on tv stomp their feet, clap their hands and scream at the top of their lungs about how they are unveiling the return path to holiness...as a born again Christian they scare the heck out of me...not in a good way.

There diatribes lead to all sorts of spiritual hoops to jump through in order to gain the favor of God.

And too mnay people form their perceptions of the Christian faith by watching these various televangelists. They see these guys selling anointed washclothes for $100, or if you'll pledge monthly to their ministry that God will heal you, and all of a sudden all evangelicals are lumped into one big pot.

I leave them alone. And I think a good reason why alot of people are swayed orf mislead by these types of ministries is because they won't take the time and effort to search out the truth for themselves... read/study the Bible. They have their own assumptions, and those too can be wrong or misguided. If one is gonna follow that path, and ignore the truth that he has already revealed, then God is not gonna force his will upon you. Not when he has already provided the truth for anyone to study/read. It involves, IMO, using s God-given ability that we all have - our intellect w/ discernment.

By and large many Christians just repeat what they hear because it makes life a little less painful...Our entire culture for that matter is obsessed with "fitting in"...and that attitude pervades the church as well.

As for the way Christian vote...again...by and large they look at one or two issues and everything else is a non-issue.

I am not crazy about George W. Bush...he actually does scare me...Was John Kerry the answer to calm my fears? Not even close.

Politically we are in a really crappy place in this country..

I voted for the lesser of two evils IMO. And I'm sure those that voted for Kerry may have felt they did the same thing. There are some things I admire about Bush, and some things that really perturb me.

[RedsBaron]

And that's great FCB, and I commend you for that effort. It shows your concern, but not that you are more concerned then the rest of us.

What I didn't like, or care for, was RF's contention, and blanket generalization, that pro-lifers don't care for the young once they are out of the womb like they do before they are born.

That's is an absurd contention that he has yet to be able to back up.

I've not before posted on this thread, mainly because the Terri Schiavo matter involved issues about which I am personally conflicted. Exactly when someone should no longer receive certain care is a medical/legal/moral issue, and I respect those who come to different conclusions about the matter.
I have no respect for the smear that an entire group does not care about babies once they have been born, or the unsupported accusation that one's compassion can be measured by whether one votes Republican or Democrat.

[MartyFan]

Originally Posted by GAC
And that's great FCB, and I commend you for that effort. It shows your concern, but not that you are more concerned then the rest of us.

What I didn't like, or care for, was RF's contention, and blanket generalization, that pro-lifers don't care for the young once they are out of the womb like they do before they are born.

That's is an absurd contention that he has yet to be able to back up.

I didn't mean to say that I was MORE concerned, but that this lil ole "non-believing" Democrat realizes that my life's good fortune has a responsibility to the less fortunate. And yes, cutting money to programs designed to help the poor hurts them; I see it ever Monday, Wednesday, and Friday of my life. I know there are a million "ways" to help the poor and suffering, but they all involve money.

FalssCity: Believers and Non-Believers alike share the burden of taking care of one another...unfortunately the church has really shirked its obligation in this area...there is so much we are not doing because we "believers" focus our money and talents on things that don't matter...at the root by and large the church is selfish. In large part we talk a big game, wag our finger at the rest of the world and rest on the fading reputation of those who believed before us.

[traderumor]

FalssCity: Believers and Non-Believers alike share the burden of taking care of one another...unfortunately the church has really shirked its obligation in this area...there is so much we are not doing because we "believers" focus our money and talents on things that don't matter...at the root by and large the church is selfish. In large part we talk a big game, wag our finger at the rest of the world and rest on the fading reputation of those who believed before us.

"Million dollar churches but no room for the poor? Why, Why, Why?" sings one of my favorite artists, Steve Camp.

[WVRed]

I dont know if this is legit or not, but ive seen that there are autopsy photos of Terri Schiavo floating around the internet.

If this is true...

:thumbdown

[RBA]

I dont know if this is legit or not, but ive seen that there are autopsy photos of Terri Schiavo floating around the internet.

If this is true...

:thumbdown

They are probably fake.

[GAC]

"Million dollar churches but no room for the poor? Why, Why, Why?" sings one of my favorite artists, Steve Camp.

It's all a part of that consumer-friendly Gospel that our culture craves, where such topics as sin, man's accountability, and judgment, are left out. People aren't going to be drawn to church to hear those kinds of things (though it was explicitly taught by Jesus). They have enough troubles in this world without having some church piling on more.

They want to here "pyscho babble" in church, and where it's all about them, and where Gods only reason to exist is as some sort of cosmic genie who is there to soothe them, and provide their every material need.

No conviction over sin, no repentance - none of that stuff. Don't want to hear that.

Two books that I am currently re-reading tr say alot about the Gospel that is being presented to this current American culture.... The Gospel According To Jesus and Hard To Believe (both my John McArthur). We are so consumer-driven, and so concerned about our material comforts, that many coming out of our theological institutes, wanting to have a successful church, are modifying the gospel to meet that demand.

"If anone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever oses his life for my sake will asve it. For what dos it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and is himslef destroyed and lost?" (Luke 9:23-25)

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more then me is not worthy of me. And he who oves his son and daughter more then me is not worthy of me. And he who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me."

These are the types of commands that people within our culture today DO NOT want to hear, when it comes to having the Gospel presented to them. They want soothing words, and to be able to say a simple, scripted "sinner's prayer", and that's it - they're in. No commitment, no sacrifice. And they are, in a large part, no different from those masses that followed Jesus, as recorded in the four Gospels. They followed, and were enamored with him, as long as he performed miracles and meet their material needs. But when he preached such sayings (as above), and many more, the crowds started to dwindle.

By the time he got to the cross.... he was abandoned and alone.

[traderumor]

GAC,

You won't go wrong reading anything by John MacArthur. Another good one with a similar topic he wrote is Ashamed of the Gospel, which discusses the orientation toward "user friendly" churches and entertainment replacing the exposition of God's word in the worship service.

[GAC]

I would like to know why Micheal was so vehement in wanting Terry cremated. I'm not saying he is trying to coverup anything; but would simply like to know why? I realize, from a legal perspective, that he doesn't have to explain or give any reasoning.

While cremation once was condemned by the Catholic Church, it has been routinely allowed since 1983.

The most widely accepted view within the Catholic Church is...

"The church preference is burial because it's the tradition, and Jesus was buried, and [because of] the belief in the resurrection of the body."

So I don't understand why he was so vehement on cremation. It does simply make people want to carry this controversy on even more, and ask questions.

This could have been a perfect opportunity to try and bring some sort of reconciliation (and yes, also a concession) with Terry's parents by allowing them to have a typical Catholic funeral/burial. Terry is now dead. I think he could have made a greater effort, and shown better sensibilites towards the parents. Even though I acknowledge that the parents have done some thing and made some accusations that IMO, weren't appropriate.

Originally, Micheal was going to have her buried on an unknwn location in PA, and even Terry's parents weren't going to be told. I can understand that he wouldn't want media people and seekers to know her final resting place due to all the attention this situation brought... but not her parents too? I found that to be very cold and callous on his part. I guess now, acording to the below article, he has been required (assuming the courts?) to let them know the location.

Schiavo body cremated, burial plans not yet set

Parents plan private service in Gulfport

By Vickie Chachere
The Associated Press
Posted April 3 2005

TAMPA · Terri Schiavo's body was cremated Saturday as the battles between her husband and parents continued, but plans for her burial in Pennsylvania have not yet been determined, her husband's attorney said.

George Felos said the cremation was carried out according to a court order issued on Tuesday giving Michael Schiavo the right to make decisions on his wife's burial. Bob and Mary Schindler had wanted to bury their daughter in Pinellas County so they could visit her grave.

Terri Schiavo, 41, died Thursday after the removal of the feeding tube that had kept her alive since 1990 in what court-appointed doctors determined was a persistent vegetative state.

Her parents had fought in court to keep her alive, saying she was severely disabled but not without hope.

Michael Schiavo is now required to tell his wife's parents of any memorial services he plans for Terri Schiavo and where her ashes are interred. The Schiavo family has said her ashes will be buried in a family plot in a Pennsylvania cemetery.

Michael Schiavo has not spoken publicly since his wife's death, but Felos said Saturday: "He's holding up. It's very difficult for him."

The Schindlers plan to have their own memorial service for their daughter at 7 p.m. Tuesday at Holy Name of Jesus Catholic Church in Gulfport.

The dispute over her burial weighed heavy on the Schindlers, but their attorneys said Saturday that it wasn't the only setback the couple suffered after their daughter's death.

The Schindlers had sought to have independent medical experts observe her autopsy at the Pinellas County Medical Examiner's Office, but the office refused the request, family attorneys David Gibbs III and Barbara Weller said.

The autopsy was completed Friday and results are not expected for several weeks. It was ordered by the county's chief medical examiner before Terri Schiavo's body was cremated. The Pinellas County Medical Examiner's Office did not return a telephone call for comment Saturday.

The examiner's office has said it would conduct examinations on Terri Schiavo's body and look for any evidence of what might have caused her 1990 collapse, thought to have been caused by a chemical imbalance brought on by an eating disorder.

A neuropathologist was also to conduct an exam.

The Schindlers, though, do not think their daughter had an eating disorder and have accused Michael Schiavo of abusing his wife, a charge which he vehemently denies. Gibbs said the Schindlers wanted to select an outside neuropathologist and forensic expert to observe the autopsy.

Over the years, the couple has sought independent investigation of their daughter's condition and what caused it, but often turned up empty-handed.

Abuse complaints to state social workers were ruled unfounded -- although one current investigation remains open -- and the Pinellas state attorney's office did not turn up evidence of abuse in one brief probe of the case.

[GAC]

GAC,

You won't go wrong reading anything by John MacArthur. Another good one with a similar topic he wrote is Ashamed of the Gospel, which discusses the orientation toward "user friendly" churches and entertainment replacing the exposition of God's word in the worship service.

I also like getting his free monthly audiotape messages. The guy doesn't pull any punches when it comes to the honest and simple truth of the Gospel. It gets one to thinking via his common sense approach and vast theological background.

Though I have to admit (since I'm not a Baptist), that do differ with him on election and predestination.

[traderumor]

I also like getting his free monthly audiotape messages. The guy doesn't pull any punches when it comes to the honest and simple truth of the Gospel. It gets one to thinking via his common sense approach and vast theological background.

Though I have to admit (since I'm not a Baptist), that do differ with him on election and predestination.

I take it you are on the Grace to You mailing list. Good to hear that.

I am a baptist, I suppose, and many baptists would differ with him on the same Only Reformed Baptists, which is I guess is what I come closest to, would be on the same page with MacArthur with respect to the areas you mentioned.

[RBA]

Before Schiavo, DCF sought to let abused girl die

By Elisa Cramer

Palm Beach Post Editorial Writer

Sunday, May 08, 2005

Fifteen years after brain damage put Terri Schiavo in a persistent vegetative state, the Florida Department of Children and Families went to excruciating lengths to block the removal of a feeding tube that was sustaining her. Fifteen days after a toddler was beaten nearly to death despite DCF cataloging numerous alarming signs of abuse, the agency began seeking a Do-Not-Resuscitate order for her.

"I thought she would potentially live in a vegetative state," DCF's chief medical director told The Post two months after examining 2-year-old Moesha Sylencieux on Jan. 26, 2001.

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Then-DCF Secretary Kathleen Kearney had sent Dr. Eric Handler to Palm Beach County to assess Moesha, who was admitted to Bethesda Memorial Hospital in Boynton Beach on Jan. 11, 2001, and transferred to Delray Medical Center's trauma unit the next day. She was unconscious with a swollen brain, bruised liver, broken bones and black-and-green welts. Some breaks and bruises were old — having been detected, though unexplained, during a monthlong stay at Miami Children's Hospital that had ended just weeks prior, with doctors and nurses pleading that DCF not release Moesha to her uninterested mother. The near-fatal injuries, investigators believe, had been caused by Moesha being held by her feet and shaken, possibly by her mother's boyfriend, though no one's been charged.

DCF asked a judge to appoint an attorney ad litem to pursue a Do-Not-Resuscitate order. The Legal Aid Society of Palm Beach County, whose attorneys are appointed by the court to represent children up to age 12 who have been abused, neglected or abandoned, opened the case on Feb. 1, 2001. Attorney John Walsh went to the hospital with his supervisor, talked to Moesha's nurses and then discussed her condition "in great detail" with her physician.

"Should I go ahead and get a DNR order?" Mr. Walsh said he asked the doctor, who replied: " 'What? What are you talking about? No, she's stable. We're not thinking about that at all.' I guess our appointment was, maybe, premature."

DCF's missteps were so obvious and horrific that a grand jury recommended the firing of nine DCF workers, and the cases of Moesha and two boys who died in 2000 became teaching tools for new DCF hires. Investigators wrote that Moesha's mother, Guerland Pierre-Louis, "appears as if she did not care about the child," rarely visiting the hospital or calling to check on her.

Investigators noted in a home study that there was no crib or anything else to indicate that a baby lived at Pierre-Louis' Lake Worth house. Investigators also noted that Pierre-Louis could not explain Moesha's broken collarbone. Investigators were told by the family of the patient in the adjacent hospital bed that Pierre-Louis spanked Moesha during her rare visits. Nurses told investigators that Moesha would cry whenever Pierre-Louis was around.

On the day Moesha was scheduled to go home, Pierre-Louis did not show up because she was, instead, trying to help her boyfriend get out of jail. Yet DCF let the girl leave with Pierre-Louis — and, while debating whether the Miami-Dade office or the Palm Beach County office should have jurisdiction, did not follow up when Moesha missed doctor appointments on Jan. 8, 10 or 12. On Jan. 11, Moesha was barely alive at Bethesda.

The girl DCF gave up on four years ago has been spending recent days in her wheelchair in Palm Beach County Courtroom 11B, as lawyers for DCF try to convince a jury that the agency should not have to pay for her continued medical care. Often referred to in DCF records as the "V/C," for "victim child," Moesha has been renamed Marissa Amora.

Ask the 6-year-old with the single dimple, the oh-so-tickled laugh and the expressive, big brown eyes who she is and she beams, "Mo-Mo." She teases her adoptive mother, Dawn Amora, when it's time to be fed PediaSure through a tube in her stomach. "Knock knock," she says, as her mother opens the shunt.

She smiles at Mary Wilson, the retired pediatric nurse she calls "May," who's been with her since she was 2, and high-fives the lawyer who years ago took her case pro bono, Joe Nusbaum, "Uncle Joe."

Like the toddler that doctors predict she mentally always will be, Mo-Mo cries "Bird!" when one flies by, shrugs when she says "all gone" and raises her arms high and round when "out comes the sun and dries up all the rain" for the Itsy-Bitsy Spider. She likes to scribble on paper and see an animated character jump when she presses buttons on a hand-held electronic game.

At 56 pounds, she wears a diaper, she cannot walk, and her brain does not tell her to swallow foods. So, she can handle Froot Loops, M&Ms and other melt-in-your-mouth treats but not meals. "She's never going to be able to have kids," her mother says. "She's never going to get married."

Legal Aid has not had a DNR case since Moesha. "They used to be fairly regular occurrences, every three or four months, say, we'd get one," said Mr. Walsh, who is now a supervising attorney with the Legal Aid Society's Foster Children's Project. "When they get that issue, they seek our appointment," Mr. Walsh said. "Do they fight us, and say, 'No'? Never. Never. Do we have Terri Schiavo-like battles about this? No."

DCF officials did not respond to two phone calls last week.

Gov. Bush has appointed two more secretaries to lead DCF since the agency initially mishandled Moesha's case under Ms. Kearney, but an unfair practice of valuing some lives more than others continues to hurt some of the neediest and most fragile Floridians. In 2003, after failing to protect a severely mentally retarded woman from being raped while in state custody, DCF fought to save the woman's fetus. Similarly, late last month, after failing to protect a 13-year-old in state custody from becoming pregnant, DCF fought to save the girl's fetus. While the state was fighting fiercely to save the unborn, it continued quietly fighting — using private lawyers — to avoid financial responsibility for a living child, one irreversibly harmed while dependent on the state for protection.

Ms. Amora deserves to know why DCF abandoned Marissa. "Is it because she was black or because she was a political embarrassment or because they screwed up?" she asks, with as much sadness as anger. "Why?"

When the agency sought to intervene in the Terri Schiavo case, a DCF spokeswoman told one newspaper: "We have a duty to protect the vulnerable and investigate allegations of abuse." President Bush urged "all those who honor Terri Schiavo to continue to work to build a culture of life where all Americans are welcomed and valued and protected, especially those who live at the mercy of others." In January, Gov. Bush vowed his all to help keep Terri Schiavo breathing: "I will do whatever I can do within the powers that have been granted to me by law and by statute. I'll do whatever I can."

Why don't they care as much for Marissa?

</SPAN>

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