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Thread: Terri Schiavo

  1. #46
    Member TeamCasey's Avatar
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    Re: Terri Schiavo

    Why should this guy look bad at all?

    My family had to go through this decision twice this year. There came a point in my sister-in-law's and aunt's treatment, when it was time to stop. My sister-in-law was cognizant and her and my brother came to that decision together. My Aunt's husband had to make that choice for her. The important thing is that all of them had a lot of support.

    To have kept them going for our own emotional well-being would be torture and selfishness.

    It's a family's decision - the press and everyone else should have just stayed the hell out of it.

    How selfish is it that people are using this family's very difficult crisis for there own political/career gain?

    How utterly ridiculous is it for us to sit here and judge a man we do not know over something so personal.
    Last edited by TeamCasey; 03-17-2005 at 12:02 PM.
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  3. #47
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    Re: Terri Schiavo

    Quote Originally Posted by TeamCasey

    How utterly ridiculous is it for us to sit hear and judge a man we do not know over something so personal.


    Rem

  4. #48
    Member Red Heeler's Avatar
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    Re: Terri Schiavo

    But is the money he is trying to get from a life insurance policy? No. It's the remainder of the settlement from a malpractice suit which was awarded and designated for the continuation of her care and rehabilitation. So it is not the same as a life insurance policy.
    Thanks, GAC, I did not know that. Like you, I have not been following this case closely.

  5. #49
    CELEBRATION TIME RBA's Avatar
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    Re: Terri Schiavo

    How much is left? I heard less than $50,000. Is that true?

  6. #50
    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: Terri Schiavo

    From her parents' web-site, www.terrisfight.org,...

    MYTH: Michael Schiavo volunteered to donate the balance of the inheritance to charity.
    FACT: In October, 1998, Schiavo’s attorney proposed that, if Terri’s parents would agree to her death by starvation, Schiavo would donate his inheritance to charity. The proposal came after a court-appointed Guardian Ad Litem cited Schiavo’s conflict of interest since he stood to inherit the balance of Terri’s medical fund upon her death. This one and only offer stated “if the proposal is not fully accepted within 10 days, it shall automatically be withdrawn”. Naturally, Terri’s parents immediately rejected the offer.


    MYTH: Terri's Medical Trust fund has been used to care for her.
    FACT: The following expenditures have been paid directly from Terri's Medical Trust fund, with the approval of Judge George Greer:
    Summary of expenses paid from Terri’s 1.2 Million Dollar medical trust fund (jury awarded 1992)
    NOTE: In his November 1993 Petition Schiavo alleges the 1993 guardianship asset balance as $761,507.50

    Atty Gwyneth Stanley $ 10,668.05
    Atty Deborah Bushnell $ 65,607.00
    Atty Steve Nilson $7,404.95
    Atty Pacarek $1,500.00
    Atty Richard Pearse (GAL) $ 4,511.95
    Atty George Felos $397,249.99

    Other
    1st Union/South Trust Bank $ 55,459.85
    Michael Schiavo $ 10,929.95

    Total $545,852.34
    Small market fan... always hoping, but never expecting.

  7. #51
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    Re: Terri Schiavo

    Fact: She's still D-E-A-D! DEAD Let her go!. You've got two people argueing over a corpse! And, if you want to place money at the root of the problem, so be it. But the parents seem to be just as greedy, even if they couch it as keeping Terri 'alive'.

    Geez!

    Rem

  8. #52
    Member dman's Avatar
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    Re: Terri Schiavo

    Quote Originally Posted by remdog
    Fact: She's still D-E-A-D! DEAD Let her go!. You've got two people argueing over a corpse! And, if you want to place money at the root of the problem, so be it. But the parents seem to be just as greedy, even if they couch it as keeping Terri 'alive'.

    Geez!

    Rem
    If/When you or loved one is involved in an auto accident or something of the sort, and the medics didn't do CPR becuase they felt you were D-E-A-D, how would you feel? Teri's still breathing and her heart still beats that's far from D-E-A-D.

  9. #53
    C-A-T-S CATS! CATS! CATS! WVRed's Avatar
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    Re: Terri Schiavo

    Quote Originally Posted by remdog
    Fact: She's still D-E-A-D! DEAD Let her go!. You've got two people argueing over a corpse! And, if you want to place money at the root of the problem, so be it. But the parents seem to be just as greedy, even if they couch it as keeping Terri 'alive'.

    Geez!

    Rem
    Again, some people on here dont agree that she is "dead". Its like arguing over where life begins, except in reverse.
    Quote Originally Posted by savafan View Post
    I've read books about sparkling vampires who walk around in the daylight that were written better than a John Fay article.

  10. #54
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Terri Schiavo

    Quote Originally Posted by TeamCasey
    Why should this guy look bad at all?

    My family had to go through this decision twice this year. There came a point in my sister-in-law's and aunt's treatment, when it was time to stop. My sister-in-law was cognizant and her and my brother came to that decision together. My Aunt's husband had to make that choice for her. The important thing is that all of them had a lot of support.



    It's a family's decision - the press and everyone else should have just stayed the hell out of it.
    I agree TC. But in this case, isn't her parents also family? Do they have the right to any input also?

    All of us are getting our data/info on this case through the media. And one really needs to shuffle through alot of various sources (some very biased on both sides) in order to try and find out the truth.

    I think all of us here value life very, very much. But medical situations like this, where someone is basically "hanging" in a type of limbo between life and death presents a very precarious dilemna.

    And I have to be honest. As much as I respect the advances of the medical profession, I really don't think they have determined or have the answers/solutions for a person in this situation. Alot of the technical medical terminology they use usually confuses most (at least me). Does "persistent vegetative state" mean they are dead? What does it mean (details) to be "clinically dead".

    I've read several medical analysis' on this woman where she demonstrate some cognitive abilities/reactions. And if I were a parent at that bedside, and seeing this was my child, then I can sympathize with those parents who want to hold on to HOPE, and also their daughter.

    Put yourself in their shoes.

    Sure. Alot of us may not agree, and think their actions are absurd or ridiculous. But if they want to accept the care and responsibility for their daughter, then why doesn't her husband just let go and let them, and move on with his life?

    I've read several articles on this woman, and one, like the one below, does cause me to cast doubts on Michael's motivations. And the writer of the below article is pro-life and conservative. So I am sure there is plenty of room to show doubt at her.

    I guess the only one who knows for sure is God.

    I just hate to see that the only alternative is to basically starve this woman to death in order to end a life where some contend she is already dead.


    Michael Schiavo: Loving Husband Or Monster?
    By Bonnie Chernin Rogoff (02/21/05)

    As national pro-life groups and prominent leaders converged in vigils outside Woodside Hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida, Terri Schiavo is inside the building in her bed, still hooked up to the feeding tube that has been center-focus of this so-called “right-to-die” case for the past several years. Ms. Schiavo is profoundly disabled and cannot communicate with words at this time.

    But she knows. She feels. There’s expression in those eyes. Just one look at her in a video with her mother and everyone except the Scarecrow on his way to Oz knows it, too.

    Recently, another presumed “brain-dead” woman made news in Kansas. In a coma after becoming the victim of a drunk driver, Sarah Scantlin snapped out of a twenty year silence and began to speak. Memories are now coming back to her. By legal definition, Miss Scantlin’s life is valid. Yesterday, it was not. Was she ever in a persistent vegetative state, or PVS? She’d respond to questions by blinking once for no, twice for yes, but since she couldn’t speak no one was ever sure she understood the questions.

    That’s the problem. No one is ever sure. The only ones who claim to know what’s best for the profoundly disabled are those who seek to benefit the most by having them legally murdered.


    On Monday, February 21, new hearings will commence before Judge Greer with regard to the Schiavo case. The Empire Journal reports that David Gibbs III, attorney representing Terri’s parents Robert and Mary Schindler, will argue that new medical tests be ordered for Terri based upon a new brain imaging study published in the journal “Neurology.” These tests could determine whether Terri Schiavo is, in fact, in a PVS. Since Judge Greer believes she is, ruled to have her killed and has thus far refused the admission of any medical evidence that would save Terri’s life, I’d be shocked to see him budge.

    Greer has been acting in the dual role of judge and guardian ad litem. He previously denied a petition by Terri’s parents that their daughter be given a swallowing test, and has denied them the right to visit Terri. He continues to promote the interests of Michael Schiavo by refusing Terri the right to independent counsel, a right which even serial killers like Ted Bundy received.

    Whenever people discuss euthanasia, you’ll always find those who will defend the odious practice. However, no one defends domestic violence. That leads to the 6 ft. 6 inch, 250 pound problem: Michael Schiavo. The evidence compiled against him suggests a history and pattern of domestic abuse against Terri and other women that is strong and significant. An immediate criminal investigation is warranted.

    The main evidence comes from a bone scan taken on March 5, 1991. As Terri’s guardian, Michael Schiavo denied her family access to Terri’s records, the results of which were not made available until November, 2002. This scan indicated numerous broken bones in various stages of healing, including compressions fractures, a broken back, pelvis, ankle, bone bruises and ossifications.

    Board certified radiologist Dr. Walker read the scan in 1991 and interpreted the results as abnormal, which he attributed to either an accident or earlier trauma. Based on the remodeling process of her bones, Dr. Walker stated in his deposition that a) the injuries indicated by the scan occurred on or around the time that Terri Schiavo collapsed; b) the abnormalities on the bone scan were not typical of someone suffering cardiac arrest and collapsing to the floor, and c) the fractures indicated by the bone scan are not typical of patients bedridden only thirteen months. As recorded in Dr. Walker’s November 21, 2003 deposition, Terri might have been the victim of foul play via a blow to her body, being thrown into a sharp furniture corner, or assaulted with a blunt object.

    On October 24, 2003, renowned forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden was interviewed by Greta van Susteren on Fox News. He disclosed that with low potassium and no elevated enzymes, it would be extremely rare for a young woman to collapse as Terri did from a heart attack. When asked what the bone injuries suggest to him, Dr. Baden replied, “Some kind of trauma. The trauma can be from a fall, or the trauma can be from some kind of beating that she obtained from somebody somewhere. It’s something that should have been investigated in 1991 when these findings were found.”

    Other medical testimonies are in agreement. One medical expert testified that a diagnosis of a heart attack was never made. Another testified that Terri’s rigid neck indicates she may have been the victim of strangulation. Psychiatrist and expert witness Carole E. Lieberman, M.D., M.P.H. offered preliminary thoughts and provided a chilling profile of Michael Schiavo as an abusive husband.

    Prior to Terri’s collapse, there were serious financial problems in her marriage and her husband Michael tried to control her behavior. He was fired from six jobs in two years, some of which he held only two weeks. They often lived on her income, which Michael often spent on himself. He monitored her odometer and isolated her from her family and friends. On the day of her collapse, Michael and Terri had a bad fight after he accused her of spending too much money at the hairdresser.

    Dr. Lieberman concludes: “He (Michael) should most definitely be investigated as the perpetrator of the ‘incident’ that caused Terri’s collapse and her current condition.”

    Michael Schiavo insists that Terri stated early in their marriage that she never would want to be kept on life support. Even if that were true, Terri is not on life support; she breathes on her own. Since Terri has no written will, everything Michael Schiavo says is hearsay. He violated numerous Florida statutes and the Americans for Disabilities Act by failing to perform his duties as his wife’s guardian, most notably by denying his disabled wife basic medical care as part of a malpractice settlement award he received.

    However, of all Michael’s offensive actions against his wife, what I deem most suspicious was his decision to have Terri cremated immediately upon her demise. In all the documentation on this case, there is not a single account of Terri Schiavo having ever expressed a desire to be cremated. Michael’s excuse is to say that she wouldn’t want a standard burial because she “doesn’t like bugs.” I’m not buying. The likely reason is that Michael has something to hide – like the cause of her numerous bone injuries, perhaps? – and he doesn’t want an autopsy to uncover any incriminating evidence.

    So, what really happened on February 25, 1990? We know that Terri fell in her home and sustained serious injuries. We know that Michael Schiavo, who was trained in CPR, oddly did not administer CPR to his wife. We know for the past fifteen years his only mission has been to deny any rehabilitation for Terri.

    Dr. Carole Lieberman observed, “If Terri were to be allowed to die, as Michael has been desperately struggling to achieve for years, it could help him escape detection. This would be a grave miscarriage of justice.”

    That’s exactly the way Michael Schiavo and the Florida judicial system want it.

    And here is an interview/depositiom from Micheal's former GF. Take it for what it is worth; but it can/does make one think....

    http://hyscience.typepad.com/hyscien...schiavo_1.html
    Last edited by GAC; 03-17-2005 at 08:21 PM.

  11. #55
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: Terri Schiavo

    I just hate to see that the only alternative is to basically starve this woman to death in order to end a life where some contend she is already dead.
    We can't have it any other way with the euthanasia laws in this country.
    If you're watchin' a parade, make sure you stand in one spot, don't follow it, it never changes. And if the parade is boring, run in the opposite direction, you will fast-foward the parade. --Mitch Hedberg

  12. #56
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Terri Schiavo

    I was watching the news last night since this story is getting even more coverage then ever right now. I'm no medical expert (as most of us aren't); but they showed a couple Drs moving various objects in front of Terry and she was following them with limited head movement, and at times was even blinking. This is what bothers me when I think they are gonna unplug this woman's feeding tube and basically starve her to death.

    And another aspect of this case that is very confusing to me is that I have heard scores of Drs from both sides (pro-life and righ to die) who give very valid arguments. But who do you believe? Are they allowong their own ideologies/biases to influence their opinions?

  13. #57
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Terri Schiavo

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner
    We can't have it any other way with the euthanasia laws in this country.
    I think a vast majority of Americans are opposed to, or very aprehensive, at enacting euthanasia laws in this country for various reasons...

    - as a whole, this country has lost it's respect for life in alot of ways. What I mean is that if that life gets in the way of ournown personal comfort/pleasure, then we selfishly find a way to justify ending it.

    - what type of euthanasia laws are we talking about? How liberally written are the laws to be? And even if at the onset the laws have strict guidelines, then alot of people feel that is just "opening the door" for later on down the road for widening these laws to be inclusive of situations that are not warranted.

    Who decides who has the right, or who qualifies, to live or die? Who sets that criteria? While I have nothing but sympathy for a terminally il patient (my Dad died of cancer 7 years ago); are they in the proper state of mind emotionally/psychologically to make those decisions?

    Is there a possibilty at some point in the future that the law will be abused or mis-applied? Will it, at some point in the future, influence our medical profession (and maybe legislators/state) in order to save costs, hospital space, or for whatever various reasons (lack of insurance or the coveraage runs out), to make decisions that are more beneficial to them then that patient/family members?

    Will we see it being utilized more on the poor, or maybe those who are "seen"/defined as not being "contributors" to our society, but a burden? They won't be missed as much.

    Now some may think these are silly or illogical questions; but it presents situations that IMO would be on the horizons if we enact such laws. I don't believe it is that far fetched. Ask someone 50-60 years ago if abortions would become legal and so readily accessible, and I wonder what kind of response one would get?

    Dom - I stated at the beginning of this thread that I would in no way want to be kept alive on a machine. In fact, I suggested that it may be somewhat wrong (or even immoral) to put anyone through that process if they are not able to maintain life functions without the aid of a machine (brain dead, etc).

    Right now, my feelings are that if someone is terminal, then they should be made as comfortable as possible till the end. Like the situation with my Dad - I don't think I would want to be the one who had to make that decision to "pull the plug" on my own Dad. Yes, it may be better off in the longrun; but still, it would be a decision that would weigh on me the rest of my life. And alot of people aren't prepared to handle that.

    Our medical technology has made great advances, and it's a wonderful thing. But I sometimes think we/they overstep their boundaries (and this case with Terry may be one of them, I don't know). And you know that I, as a Christian, see life as very precious. But sadly enough, death is also a fact of life.

    And this may sound silly, but I sometimes feel that our medical profession has at times lost the "humane" aspect that is to guide that profession. In other words, some, in the name of science/advances are like Victor Frankenstein who while maybe warned by his peer was "toying"/experimenting in areas that maybe are not meant to be. And we have paients who are neither dead or alive; but surviving in some sort of limbo. And that ain't living IMO.

  14. #58
    Member Red Heeler's Avatar
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    Re: Terri Schiavo

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    I was watching the news last night since this story is getting even more coverage then ever right now. I'm no medical expert (as most of us aren't); but they showed a couple Drs moving various objects in front of Terry and she was following them with limited head movement, and at times was even blinking. This is what bothers me when I think they are gonna unplug this woman's feeding tube and basically starve her to death.

    And another aspect of this case that is very confusing to me is that I have heard scores of Drs from both sides (pro-life and righ to die) who give very valid arguments. But who do you believe? Are they allowong their own ideologies/biases to influence their opinions?
    GAC, one of my classes yesterday was about helping pet owners deal with the decision and consequences of euthanasia. One of the criteria that is used as a guideline for the decision to euthanize a pet is "are they having a lot more bad days than good days?"

    My two week old son will sometimes follow objects with limited head movements and blinks, too. Even if you allow that her brain activity is on par with a two week old infant, is that the kind of quality of life that we want to allow for our loved ones? If she has a higher level of consciousness than an infant, would that not be even worse? I can't even imagine the daily misery a person would go through if they actually realized that all they could do was occasionally follow objects with limited head movements.

  15. #59
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Terri Schiavo

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Heeler
    GAC, one of my classes yesterday was about helping pet owners deal with the decision and consequences of euthanasia. One of the criteria that is used as a guideline for the decision to euthanize a pet is "are they having a lot more bad days than good days?"
    But that is justification to end someone's life?.... having more bad days then good? Heck! I qualify then!

    My two week old son will sometimes follow objects with limited head movements and blinks, too. Even if you allow that her brain activity is on par with a two week old infant, is that the kind of quality of life that we want to allow for our loved ones? If she has a higher level of consciousness than an infant, would that not be even worse? I can't even imagine the daily misery a person would go through if they actually realized that all they could do was occasionally follow objects with limited head movements.
    Is it still life, whether it's a 2 yr old or a 40 yr old?

    If a child was born with Down Syndrome or some other type of brain abnormality, or any type other type of disability that prevents them from living what we define as a viable/productive life within our society, do we then say that is not life and we should have the option to end it?

    That is what I am woriried about RH - laws written with so many generalities that even though the intentions are good, it leaves the door open for abuse/mis-application.

    What about guys like Christopher Reeves? Do we, as a society, just give up on these types of individuals?

    P.S. -congratulations. 2 weks old huh? Are you getting any sleep?
    Last edited by GAC; 03-19-2005 at 08:00 AM.

  16. #60
    Member Red Heeler's Avatar
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    Re: Terri Schiavo

    I see what you are saying, GAC. It could be a slippery slope. In a case like Ms. Schiavo's, I would like to see euthanasia as an option once the decision has been made to remove life support. A quick death from euthanasia would be far more humane for both her and her family than a slow death from starvation. I also think that it should be a living will option for chronically ill patients. I would not want to expand the abilities of other people to make the decision on euthanasia beyond the current ability to decide whether or not to remove life support.

    As for Heeler, Jr, thanks for the congrats. He is our first, and I have to say that being a Dad is the coolest thing going. I'm getting by alright on sleep. He is a pretty placid little fellow right now. Mrs. Heeler has it worse than I do. She is breast feeding, so she has to get up a couple of times during the night to feed him.


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