Turn Off Ads?
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 28 of 28

Thread: Excellent article about the Economy

  1. #16
    Team Puffy Leadoff Hitter CbusRed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Bexley OH
    Posts
    1,252

    Re: Excellent article about the Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBloodedAmerican
    I find your distaste for the average American worker could be interpeted as unpatriotic and not really based in reality.
    :MandJ:



    And I thought I had seen it all... :MandJ:

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #17
    CELEBRATION TIME RBA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    San Marcos, CA
    Posts
    13,983

    Re: Excellent article about the Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by CbusRed
    :MandJ:



    And I thought I had seen it all... :MandJ:
    Show me some facts on how Americans are lazy. Just throwing out some right wing talking points ain't going to cut it.

  4. #18
    Team Puffy Leadoff Hitter CbusRed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Bexley OH
    Posts
    1,252

    Re: Excellent article about the Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBloodedAmerican
    Show me some facts on how Americans are lazy. Just throwing out some right wing talking points ain't going to cut it.

    I will, after you justfiy how YOU can call ME unpatriotic.


    I feel as though I have just been called a retard by a retarded kid. :MandJ:

  5. #19
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    20,897

    Re: Excellent article about the Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by CbusRed
    Or stop being a nation full of free-loaders looking for a hand-out all the time, and start becoming an innovator.
    It doesn't matter what we innovate here.. it will be cheaper to maintain and produce in Aisa, unless the US does become a 3rd world country.

    I've experienced that first hand. US Company comes up with idea. Hires American engineers to work 60-80 hour weeks to get it to work. It works.
    Project gets sent overseas and all Americans working on it get laid off.

    The US may not end up as a 3rd world country, but current policies by the government and coorporations are going to drag down everyone's standard of living. However, justice will be served when coorporate earnings drop as the middle class consumer pool shrinks (worldwide, these low paid Aisan workers don't have the money to buy this stuff that is being outsourced).

    Just remember, 2/3 of the American economy is driven by consumer spending. As the middle class shrinks, so does the economy.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  6. #20
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Right Down Broadway
    Posts
    18,574

    Re: Excellent article about the Economy

    The loss of a manufacturing base is a problem and I have sounded the alarm since graduating from college in 1991. As this economy continues to move toward a service economy, which again started in full force during my college days 1987-1991 with merger mania and takeovers, now the problem has evolved to outsourcing. Now, these are by no means expert opinions, just top side observations by an accountant. Even my own profession can be a part of the problem, as a service provider whose fees normally transfer wealth, rather than create it.

    What's the solution? Sad to say, the paper that holds our economy in place will probably be burned one day. In other words, it will probably play out in a Great Depression type of economic collapse that forces standards of living down and forces folks to accept lower wages for low skill jobs instead of the few manufacturing jobs that remain having the disadvantage of high wages for low skill jobs. So, I would say that the Third World comparison is a bit of hyperbole, but a collapse of this economny seems inevitable. Not sure when that will be, but I think it will be the only medicine that cures our ills.
    Can't win with 'em

    Can't win without 'em

  7. #21
    CELEBRATION TIME RBA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    San Marcos, CA
    Posts
    13,983

    Re: Excellent article about the Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by CbusRed
    I will, after you justfiy how YOU can call ME unpatriotic.


    I feel as though I have just been called a retard by a retarded kid. :MandJ:
    I said, could be intepreted as unpatriiotic. I have since removed it from my post. Sorry if you were offfended by the "could be intepreted as unpatriotic"

    What ever your opinoin of me, I guess I can't change. Oh well. Have fun in your world.

    Please feel free to PM, if you wish. I won't respond to any this "patriotic" stuff in this forum. And yes, I started it.
    Last edited by RBA; 03-25-2005 at 12:05 PM.

  8. #22
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    20,897

    Re: Excellent article about the Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM
    . Most of the new BIG ideas are still coming from American engineers at the OEMs and not foreign engineers at the ODMs. Innovation still takes place right here in the USA. Maybe that will change too, but not any time soon, IMO.
    It will change. Give these ODM engineers another 10 years of experience.

    Remember, it started off that only manufacturing was disappearing (which I thought was alarming at the time). They promised us that all the white collar jobs would stay in the US, which obviously was wrong.

    What's the answer? Tariff all imports that aren't produced with comparable labor, safety, and pollution standards. That will pretty much kill the competitive advantage of going overseas. We may have to pay 20% more for our plastic crap at Walmart, but it would produce more jobs in the US, increase the tax base (more people working, and making more). Long term,
    it would help everyone more.

    Of course, I know the "free trade" people are going to reject that idea. But what we have now is not free trade. For example, I have a relative in the steel manufacturing business. Without getting too technical, there are some manufactured parts that need a coating. In the US, you have to go through great pains to collect the coating, dispose of it properly, protect the workers from exposure, etc. When they make these parts in Aisa, they load them up on the boat, do the coating on the boat, and then dump all the stuff in the Ocean. That's where the cost savings comes in. So our children are going to eat poisoned fish as a trade off to that cost savings... Countless other examples.. But coorporations only care about the bottom line.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  9. #23
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    20,897

    Re: Excellent article about the Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    What's the solution? Sad to say, the paper that holds our economy in place will probably be burned one day. In other words, it will probably play out in a Great Depression type of economic collapse that forces standards of living down and forces folks to accept lower wages for low skill jobs .
    Sadly, I agree with you. The big problem we are going to have with the next depression is that the US government may not be able to borrow money either, so it's going to be tough for the government to create massive jobs as it did during the Great Depression.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  10. #24
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Posts
    12,324

    Re: Excellent article about the Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD
    Tariff all imports that aren't produced with comparable labor, safety, and pollution standards.
    I'm in total support of this. But this is an ethical argument, not an economic one. I agree that the US should require companies seeling goods in the US to abide by a certain level of safety standards, environmental standards, and labor relations standards.

    That will pretty much kill the competitive advantage of going overseas.
    It will make a small dent in the competitive advantage these countries have, but it won't be enough to make it worthwhile to keep it all here.

    We may have to pay 20% more for our plastic crap at Walmart, but it would produce more jobs in the US, increase the tax base (more people working, and making more). Long term, it would help everyone more.
    Actually, having to pay that much more for goods would have the exact OPPOSITE effect. The impact it would have on demand would more than offset any positive that might occur from it. It would create massive unemployment and the economic impact would be much greater than what you think would happen if we left it alone.

    We heard all the same arguments back in the 70s and 80s when manufacturing became more machine based and less human based. There were all kinds of doom and gloom scenarios put forth back then and none of them came to pass.

    If you really want to understand golablization, you should read In Defense of Globalization by Jagdish Bhagwati. It's an excellent book and Bhagwti's credentials and credibility on the subject are unmatched. But if you're not interested in really learning the other side of the argument then don't read it. He addresses every issue you bring up in your arguments.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  11. #25
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Right Down Broadway
    Posts
    18,574

    Re: Excellent article about the Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM
    We heard all the same arguments back in the 70s and 80s when manufacturing became more machine based and less human based. There were all kinds of doom and gloom scenarios put forth back then and none of them came to pass.
    I'm asking this because I don't know but reasoning and wondering, but hasn't automation contributed to the loss of manufacturing jobs? Add that to outsourcing and we see folks working in the retail and service sectors (and probably making less) instead of at the local factory?
    Can't win with 'em

    Can't win without 'em

  12. #26
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    The Bush Leagues
    Posts
    9,035

    Re: Excellent article about the Economy

    But if you're not interested in really learning the other side of the argument then don't read it.
    That side of the argument is all you usually get. Just turn on the TV Sunday morning. Anyone who disagrees with "free trade" and the infallibility of the market is labeled a crank.

    Actually, having to pay that much more for goods would have the exact OPPOSITE effect.
    How so? That stuff is mostly made in China. Walmart might loose some money but maybe people will go out to eat or take a longer vacation or whatever with their money instead of wasting it on a singing bass.

    We live in a Democracy, we don't have to just shrug our shoulders to the inevitability of globalism.
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

  13. #27
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    20,897

    Re: Excellent article about the Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM
    I'm in total support of this. But this is an ethical argument, not an economic one. I agree that the US should require companies seeling goods in the US to abide by a certain level of safety standards, environmental standards, and labor relations standards.
    Although the environmental side of it will eventually become an economic arguement. When the Pacific Ocean eventually becomes unfishable due to pollution.. But I'm glad you agree



    Quote Originally Posted by MWM
    It will make a small dent in the competitive advantage these countries have, but it won't be enough to make it worthwhile to keep it all here.
    It depends, largely on how far you make them up their labor standards.
    But making stuff in the US has a huge advantage of not having to ship stuff across the ocean. A lot of furniture built overseas actually has lumber harvested from America sent to china, manufactured and shipped back here.
    I know someone who was formerly a manager of a furniture manufacturing plant. His company went to China (and he eventually lost his job). The big cost savings in that industry was no environmental controls. His factory was in a rural town, and while the labors were paid pretty good, it was not a big labor saving solution. A lot of stuff is automated. The American workers due better work and are more productive. In fact, they still do the custom work in the USA, because when they sent that to China, the Chineese screwed it up so often that it wasn't economically working. So, at least for that industry,
    that legislation would bring some furniture jobs back to America. Maybe the same thing doesn't hold for plastic, steel, textiles, etc.. but it would certainly help stem the flow of jobs out of the country. It's a pretty expensive proposition to move operations overseas and risky.




    Quote Originally Posted by MWM
    Actually, having to pay that much more for goods would have the exact OPPOSITE effect. The impact it would have on demand would more than offset any positive that might occur from it. It would create massive unemployment and the economic impact would be much greater than what you think would happen if we left it alone.
    It all depends. People bought VCRs back in the late 80's when they cost $200 each. Today they cost about $30 (and don't last nearly as long, but that's a different story). You could probably make that VCR in America for $50-60 at the most. Would that put that much of a dent in VCR buying?

    Look at the economy now.. The price of at least some automobiles is going down quite dramatically. In 1997, I paid about 12-13k for my Chevy, and that was invoice. Today, since the economy is slow, I hear ads on the radio for that same car at about 10k, plus generous financing.. During the dotcom boom, people had more money to spend on stuff because they had more money. Now, times are tighter, so companies are forced to lower prices to get the customers to buy more. It's entirely possible that if the middle class has more job security and isn't worried about their job disappearing, that they will spend more than they are today, thus increasing demand.

    I do see your point, that in general, higher prices lead to less demand. However, IMO, it's a more complicated situation than just that. Consumer confidence and income plays a major role in that.

    I'm certianly not a representative sample of the population , but after being outsourced a couple of times, our spending has gone WAY, WAY down.
    The goal now is to save up enough money to weather the next layoff. And I'm one of the lucky ones. At least I'm not an engineer forced to take a low paying job unrelated to their field .. those people used to be good "economy stimulators" but now have no extra income to buy luxuries, no matter how cheap Aisa can make them.

    In other words, demand can get squeezed by people not having money, as well as high prices. It's a complex relationship that I certainly don't have the answer for.


    But if you're not interested in really learning the other side of the argument then don't read it. He addresses every issue you bring up in your arguments.
    I am interested in hearing that side. I know I've gotten overly emotional about this in the past. I concede your point that bringing back all manufacturing to the US (if that was hypothetically possible) might result in higher prices. It might squeeze demand. At the same time, I see the middle class shrinking also squeezing demand and thus the economy.. Who is going to buy all these services in the service based economy? If nothing else, what about all the tax revenue the government is losing from people who have been outsourced out of their jobs? That impacts everyone as well.

    I'm not sure if they've declared the recession over or not .. By my definition, a "jobless" recovery really isn't a recovery.

    Do you see my point that as the middle class shrinks and has less disposible income due to downward wage pressure and living expenses flat or increasing (fuel, heating, mortgage payments).. that will also squeeze demand for the products these cost conscious coorporations are selling us?
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  14. #28
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    20,897

    Re: Excellent article about the Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo
    Walmart might loose some money but maybe people will go out to eat or take a longer vacation or whatever with their money instead of wasting it on a singing bass.
    .
    :MandJ: I know someone with 4 of those..

    But you raise a good point. It doesn't matter what it costs to manufacture that singing bass or whatever. Walmart is going to charge whatever the market will bear for it. On at least some items, the consumer sees no cost reduction from outsourcing..
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25