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Thread: Pope John Paul II dead

  1. #46
    Smells Like Teen Spirit jmcclain19's Avatar
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    Re: Pope John Paul II dead

    Update on who the Cardinals will select as the next Pope

    http://www.newsday.com/news/nationwo...orld-headlines

    By RACHEL ZOLL
    AP Religion Writer

    April 1, 2005, 6:03 PM EST

    Pope John Paul II has named nearly every cardinal who will elect his successor, but that does not mean the next pontiff will be just like him.

    The world's cardinals hold diverse and often conflicting views about what are the most pressing issues for the Roman Catholic Church and will likely seek out a leader with different qualities than John Paul's.

    "The cardinals, when they come in the conclave, they follow their conscience and they see what's useful for the church today," said Belgian Cardinal Godfried Danneels, in a recent interview with The Associated Press. "There is not that kind of nepotism in the church -- 'I appointed all the cardinals so there will be exactly my copy.' No. We are a bit more intelligent than that."

    Among the cardinals mentioned as potential future popes are Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, a German who is the Vatican's doctrinal watchdog; Brazilian Cardinal Claudio Hummes; and Cardinal Oscar Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras. Others also considered possible successors to John Paul include Cardinal Francis Arinze, a Vatican-based Nigerian; Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn of Austria and Cardinal Dionigi Tettamanzi of Italy.

    The next pope will confront a range of challenges, including scientific advances that conflict with Catholic teaching; the decline of religious observance in Europe and North America; an explosion in church membership in the Third World; and a dwindling number of priests in the West.

    He will be taking over at a time of sometimes deadly interfaith tensions, and during a period of enormous global unrest, as world leaders confront terrorism in ways the church does not always condone.

    Yet, when the cardinals decide who among them can handle these issues, some of their concerns may seem mundane.

    After a quarter-century of John Paul's strong personality and hands-on management style, some want Vatican officials to stay out of the day-to-day operations of dioceses. Others believe officials in Rome should stay deeply involved to crack down on dissent.

    Some church leaders believe cardinals and bishops should have more say in church governance, while others think that power should remain mostly with the pope.

    In simple terms, the new pope could be the kind of boss the cardinals want for themselves.

    They also will look for a man with a strong command of English and Italian, to communicate with the world's Catholics and with church officials in charge of the day-to-day operations of the Vatican.

    Age may also be a factor. John Paul's papacy of 26 years has been one of the longest in church history, and the cardinals may back an older candidate as a "transitional pope" -- someone whose tenure may not be quite so long.

    "Most cardinals don't think a really long papacy will be a good idea," said James Hitchcock, a historian and church expert at Saint Louis University. "But with modern medicine if they elect a man who is 70, he could live until he was 95."

    Geography also will influence the vote. John Paul was the first non-Italian pope in 455 years. Vatican observers disagree over whether there will be pressure in the conclave to return the papacy to an Italian, or whether they will want to send a signal to the burgeoning ranks of Catholics in the Third World by choosing an African or Latin American candidate.

    "This is one of the real dividing lines they're going to have to consider," said David Gibson, a former Vatican Radio newsman and author of "The Coming Catholic Church."

    "If they just go back to an elderly Italian, it will be a kind of let down from the intensity of this papacy. Or they may say, `Look, let's keep this interest going, we went behind the Iron Curtain last time, let's go to Latin America this time.'"

    Although there are many unknowns going into a conclave, church experts agree on at least one thing: There is almost no chance the next pope will be an American. The cardinals will not want to give the impression that the church is in the hands of the world's lone superpower.

    And Catholics clinging to a shred of hope that the church will make celibacy optional for priests or allow women to be ordained will probably be disappointed.

    "You're not going to see a liberal in that sense. There really aren't liberals like that," Gibson said. "I think there's some room for discussion on celibacy. And that is simply what it would be: discussion."

    Danneels noted another reason that the next pope will not be a carbon copy of John Paul: there is no one exactly like him in the College of Cardinals.

    "My impression with the pope is he combines two qualities that you rarely find together in one person," Danneels said. "He's a leader. ... At the same time, he's a very warm person."

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  3. #47
    Smells Like Teen Spirit jmcclain19's Avatar
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    Re: Pope John Paul II dead

    More about how the process actually works

    By Keith Miller
    Correspondent
    NBC News

    There is a system here that has been in place for a long, long time. This is an ancient and a massive bureaucracy presiding over basically a billion people.

    What they have in place is to ensure the smooth transition of the church and more importantly, the smooth transition to the next leader.

    Basically, they have it written in stone that upon the pope’s death, his funeral is to take place between four and to six days following his death.

    There will be a funeral Mass conducted in St. Peter’s Square to allow the greatest number of people to attend in person. If the weather is extremely bad they would move it inside the basilica, but that is not expected.

    The number of people that would attend would certainly exceed 100,000 people. St. Peter’s Square can hold that, and some more. There will be standing-room only.

    That would be followed by nine days of mourning. That’s an official period of time of reflection, thinking back upon the papacy of John Paul II, and also thinking forward to where the Catholic Church and its flock are heading.

    What is the procedure for electing the next pope?
    Then, perhaps the most important moment after the death of the pope will be the Conclave. The Conclave is the procedure for electing the next pope. That has to happen no less than 15 days, and no more than 20 days, after the death of the pope. That is nothing less than 15 days out of respect to the previous pope, and no more than 20 days, so there is no delay in the process.

    We are really dealing with a worldwide church now, so that it also gives time for cardinals to come and assemble from across the earth.

    At the moment, there are 183 cardinals, or as they call them, “Princes of the Church.” Out of that number, 117 are eligible to vote for the next pope. The eligibility is based strictly on age. Since this pope came into office, he passed a church law that no one over the age of 80 can vote. At the moment, there are 66 cardinals are over the age of 80. Some of them won’t be attending the Conclave, or will be coming to the Vatican, because they are also frail or in ill health, like the pope.

    So, there are 117 electors that will be choosing the next pope.

    One interesting thing about the Conclave is that the word actually means "locked up" in Latin. The idea is that you lock these men up until they make a decision. The reason they had this initially was that during the Conclaves of old, the churchmen would gather together in a palace somewhere and be very comfortable – they would be fed and housed rather luxuriously. So, they would never make a decision because they weren’t interested in going anywhere else.

    At one point in Italy they ran on so long -- for years -- that residents of a local village where they were staying ended up tearing off the roof of the palace to expose the cardinals to the elements and forcing them to make a decision.

    So, there is some logic behind this ancient ritual. The idea is to get them to get moving because the church is without a pope, without someone sitting on the throne of St. Peter. So, the Conclave is intended to push them along in that process as delicately as possible.

    What happens with the actual voting and sending out a signal via a plume of smoke out of the Vatican?

    After any inconclusive vote they burn the ballots in a fireplace and add a chemical which turns the smoke black. But, if in fact they have elected a pope, then they will also burn the secret ballots, but without the chemical, and the smoke will come from the Sistine Chapel as white. That will alert the city of Rome, and indeed the world, that we have a pope.

    Mind you, there have been instances in the past on an overcast day that the white smoke has looked black and people have said, "Oh, we don’t have a pope." And on other days when it’s been a dark, cloudy day, the black smoke has looked white. So, it is not a particularly fool-proof method.

    It is about 15 minutes after the smoke appears that an announcement would be made on who is the next pope.

    One last thing that I think is fascinating is that once the pope is elected and his name has been revealed to the College of Cardinals assembled in the Sistine Chapel, he goes to what is called the “Room of Tears.” It is a room where they have a number of different-size cassocks for the newly elected pope to put on before he meets the people of Rome and the world.

    They call it the “Room of Tears” because several times newly elected popes have entered there and broken down in tears, realizing the responsibility that they have and the enormous burden they have just taken on to represent God on earth.

    For many it has proved too much emotionally, momentarily, but nonetheless, too much. Subsequently, this small cloister, off the Sistine Chapel is now known unofficially among the Vatican hierarchy as the “Room of Tears.”

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    Re: News agencies report Pope John Paul II dead

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor

    I'm not a Catholic, but is it really in good form to laugh at one of their traditions, particularly in a thread concerning the death of their pontiff?

    I mean, it's not like evangelical Protestants don't have some soft spots we could push on. Shall we?

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    Re: Pope John Paul II dead

    I'm not Catholic and I profoundly disagree with much of Catholicism, but I regard John Paul II to have been a giant of the Twentieth Century. By all accounts I've read, Pius XII failed miserably in dealing with one of the Twentieth Century's two great plagues, Naziism, but John Paul II heroically contended against that century's other plague, Communism, even taking a bullet for his troubles.
    As for John Paul II's theology and its effects upon Catholicism, that is a matter for Catholics to resolve.
    R.I.P.
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    Re: News agencies report Pope John Paul II dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    I'm not a Catholic, but is it really in good form to laugh at one of their traditions, particularly in a thread concerning the death of their pontiff?

    I mean, it's not like evangelical Protestants don't have some soft spots we could push on. Shall we?
    FCB,

    I'm pretty sure that RFA was making a joke, which is what I laughed at. Please find someone else to pick a fight with, cuz I'm not biting.
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  7. #51
    Glenn Braggs
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    Re: News agencies report Pope John Paul II dead

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    I'm pretty sure that RFA was making a joke ....
    No, it's the actual procedure which originated centuries ago. It just wasn't changed and seems laughable now, but it's part of a tradition. The actual death is testified by a doctor of course.

  8. #52
    First Time Caller SunDeck's Avatar
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    Re: Pope John Paul II dead

    I always told people who asked if I practiced the faith that I'd go to church if the pope wanted me there. Yet, even I got a twinge today when I heard he had died.
    Last edited by SunDeck; 04-02-2005 at 09:23 PM.
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    Re: News agencies report Pope John Paul II dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Thunder
    No, it's the actual procedure which originated centuries ago. It just wasn't changed and seems laughable now, but it's part of a tradition. The actual death is testified by a doctor of course.
    http://www.heraldonline.com/24hour/w...10458810c.html
    The camerlengo, now Cardinal Eduardo Martinez Somalo of Spain, must then verify the death - a process which in the past was done by striking the forehead of the pope with a silver hammer. The camerlengo then calls out to the pope three times by his baptismal name - Karol, Karol, Karol. When the pope does not respond, the camerlengo then announces "the pope is dead."
    I found this, doesn't seem like the silver hammer is used any more, but just read the post as someone making a joke, which in hindsight, would have been inappropriate in the first place. I will go now.
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    Re: News agencies report Pope John Paul II dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    I'm not a Catholic, but is it really in good form to laugh at one of their traditions, particularly in a thread concerning the death of their pontiff?

    I mean, it's not like evangelical Protestants don't have some soft spots we could push on. Shall we?

    Is it just me or is anybody else starting to get a little tired of religion. At least we've seen Trade Rumor's true colors.

  11. #55
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: News agencies report Pope John Paul II dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutaman
    Is it just me or is anybody else starting to get a little tired of religion. At least we've seen Trade Rumor's true colors.
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  12. #56
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Pope John Paul II dead

    There isn't an evangelical, even though they have vast theological differences with catholism, who isn't sadden by the Pope's passing. I felt the same with Mother Theresa.

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    Re: News agencies report Pope John Paul II dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutaman
    Is it just me or is anybody else starting to get a little tired of religion. At least we've seen Trade Rumor's true colors.
    Knock that crap off. If I see it again, you will suffer the consequences.
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    Re: News agencies report Pope John Paul II dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R
    Knock that crap off. If I see it again, you will suffer the consequences.
    What about freedom of speech and the consitution?
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    Re: News agencies report Pope John Paul II dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R
    Knock that crap off. If I see it again, you will suffer the consequences.
    Is it ok to use the word "crap"?

  16. #60
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    Re: Pope John Paul II dead

    I'm agnostic. I find the whole thing absolutely fascinating. I was 12 back in 1978 when it happened last,it was fascinating then also. While I have no use for religion,I do admire the faith involved. For those in mourning,my condolences.
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