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Thread: Judge Says There is a "Faith War" in the US

  1. #46
    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: Judge Says There is a "Faith War" in the US

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis
    Article by Mitchell Zimmerman
    You understand that Mitchell Zimmerman is thought to be as much of an extremist as some make Judge Brown out to be? Very diff. sides of the fence of course.

    Read Zimmerman's opening about the poor Jewish person in the workplace. Extreme? Did this really happen? Is he talking from a real case or is he fabricating a story to try to convince the reader to believe everything that follows? Why does the man have to makeup a story to try to sell his story? Sounds more like a used-car salesman than a writer to me.

    The Republican judges' war on democracy has only begun, but one is reminded of Iran, in which the powers of freely elected leaders and an emerging democracy have been nullified by unelected religious leaders.
    And then we get this towards the end? Uh... pretty extreme there, Mr. Zimmerman. Those darn Repubs are turning this country into another Iran. PLEASE! And what kind of country are we fast becoming when judges decide that they want to MAKE the law by approving gay marriages? See... for every Zimmerman comment, there are plenty to throw back at him.

    We hear from some that Judge Brown is extreme and is not allowed freedom of speech. Then the same people keep giving articles to back it up that are written by very extreme people who seem to enjoy their right to freedom of speech. It does not seem fair. Some might say it is a bit hypocritical.
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  3. #47
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    Re: Judge Says There is a "Faith War" in the US

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966
    You understand that Mitchell Zimmerman is thought to be as much of an extremist as some make Judge Brown out to be? Very diff. sides of the fence of course.

    Read Zimmerman's opening about the poor Jewish person in the workplace. Extreme? Did this really happen? Is he talking from a real case or is he fabricating a story to try to convince the reader to believe everything that follows? Why does the man have to makeup a story to try to sell his story? Sounds more like a used-car salesman than a writer to me.



    And then we get this towards the end? Uh... pretty extreme there, Mr. Zimmerman. Those darn Repubs are turning this country into another Iran. PLEASE! And what kind of country are we fast becoming when judges decide that they want to MAKE the law by approving gay marriages? See... for every Zimmerman comment, there are plenty to throw back at him.

    We hear from some that Judge Brown is extreme and is not allowed freedom of speech. Then the same people keep giving articles to back it up that are written by very extreme people who seem to enjoy their right to freedom of speech. It does not seem fair. Some might say it is a bit hypocritical.
    It's interesting that you attacked the author of that article, rather than it's subject. I have posted two things now--one, a link providing detailed information on the voting record of Judge Brown, and the other concerning her stance on a particular case on civil rights. Thus far you have ignored both and responded only to the crticism of the author of the article.

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    Re: Judge Says There is a "Faith War" in the US

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966
    We hear from some that Judge Brown is extreme and is not allowed freedom of speech. Then the same people keep giving articles to back it up that are written by very extreme people who seem to enjoy their right to freedom of speech. It does not seem fair. Some might say it is a bit hypocritical.
    Do you not understand the difference between a judge and a pundit, or why one may be afforded more leeway in the entitlement of free speech than the other?

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    The Mad Monk Jaycint's Avatar
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    Re: Judge Says There is a "Faith War" in the US

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis
    Do you not understand the difference between a judge and a pundit, or why one may be afforded more leeway in the entitlement of free speech than the other?
    Please, as long as she doesn't make a judgement based on her religious beliefs in a court of law then she is entitled to her opinions and is afforded all of the rights that any other citizen would have. If it costs her in the long run then it is her own fault but to say that she should somehow censor her thoughts and her views is ludicrous in my opinion.

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    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: Judge Says There is a "Faith War" in the US

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaycint
    Please, as long as she doesn't make a judgement based on her religious beliefs in a court of law then she is entitled to her opinions and is afforded all of the rights that any other citizen would have. If it costs her in the long run then it is her own fault but to say that she should somehow censor her thoughts and her views is ludicrous in my opinion.
    Absolutely. Still no cases where her religion obviously was the basis for her decison. Just some articles from other extremists. Not good enough here or in a court of law.

    Freedom of speech is for all citizens of this country. And articles that state a certain party is trying to turn this country into another Iran... ah, forget it. Who is the extremist? Makes Judge Brown seem like an altar-girl... oops, am I allowed say that (it references religion)?
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    Re: Judge Says There is a "Faith War" in the US

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis
    I am opposed to anyone who bases their judicial opinions on personal convictions rather than the law.

    Do you believe that the holding in Roe v. Wade was correctly decided as a matter of Constitutional law, rather than being based upon the personal convictions of the majority? Do you agree with the Supreme Court's decision earlier this year holding that capital punishment of juvenile offenders is prohibited by the Constitution, or was that decision based upon the personal convictions of the majority? Have recent decisions in certain state courts striking down restrictions against same-sex marriages been based upon those states' constitutions, or were those decisions based upon the personal convictions of the judges deciding the cases?
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    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Judge Says There is a "Faith War" in the US

    I find it humorous, hypocritical, and yes very sad, that this very same Supreme Court, whose justices begin court sessions with a marshal shouting, "God save the United States and this honorable court", are making rulings on various public display of religious symbols when those very same symbols are entrenched in and on the Supreme Court Building they reside, and on alot of federal buildings in D.C.

    And if people are somewhat upset, or unsettled, over what this curent justice has stated, then they would be simply appalled, and the public outcry horrendous, at many of the blatant public endorsements of the Christian faith by many of our past Supreme Court justices. What this current justice said is tame considering previous statements throughout the history of our Supreme Court.

    The below pictures are from the Supreme Court building and our National archives (just to list a couple). All of Moses and those dreaded 10 Commandments.
    Last edited by GAC; 07-20-2006 at 06:20 AM.

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    Re: Judge Says There is a "Faith War" in the US

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaycint
    Please, as long as she doesn't make a judgement based on her religious beliefs in a court of law then she is entitled to her opinions and is afforded all of the rights that any other citizen would have. If it costs her in the long run then it is her own fault but to say that she should somehow censor her thoughts and her views is ludicrous in my opinion.
    But that's just it...Justice Brown has been VERY outspoken about her conservative religious beliefs, someone in her courtroom holding an opposing view would likely (and reasonably) feel that they would not receive a fair trial. Like I said earlier, she isn't going to write in her decisions "After a long consultation with God, I have arrived at this conclusion..." Or, "According to Leviticus Chapter 8, a person should do this..." those are blatantly unethical. But, being as outspoken as she is on a number of issues, many of which are controversial under the law, it stands to reason that her impartiality would be called into question. I don't expect judges to become robots when deciding issues of law, but neither should they reduce themselves to the level of the forum page pundit. The concept of an impartial trial is one that is sacrosanct in the American Court System, and there are serious doubts about Judge Brown's ability to do that in light of her continued outspokeness on a number of issues.

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    Re: Judge Says There is a "Faith War" in the US

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron
    Do you believe that the holding in Roe v. Wade was correctly decided as a matter of Constitutional law, rather than being based upon the personal convictions of the majority? Do you agree with the Supreme Court's decision earlier this year holding that capital punishment of juvenile offenders is prohibited by the Constitution, or was that decision based upon the personal convictions of the majority? Have recent decisions in certain state courts striking down restrictions against same-sex marriages been based upon those states' constitutions, or were those decisions based upon the personal convictions of the judges deciding the cases?
    I don't deny that personal opinions are invariably going to weigh on a judge's decision process. It's when those convictions, rather than the law, become the context for the decision that is made that the problem occurs. In each of the cases you mentioned above (aside from Roe v. Wade, which was a horrible judicial opinion, and it surprises me it hasn't been overturned) I'm certain that a certain amount of personal opinions went into the formulation of the opinions. I'm also certain that each opinion was made within the context of the law. When the Courts decided to grant voting rights to women, or equal protection to minorities, I've no doubt that the judges in the case had personal opinions about the matter which factored into their decision process. However, the decisions were also based on the interpretation of the law. Irrespective of the personal views of the judges themselves, the laws can withstand scrutiny because they are grounded in law. Many of Judge Brown's opinions made while on the California Bench would be questionnable, at best, following this test. A link to her opinions is located further up on this thread.

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    Re: Judge Says There is a "Faith War" in the US

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    I find it humorous, hypocritical, and yes very sad, that this very same Supreme Court, whose justices begin court sessions with a marshal shouting, "God save the United States and this honorable court", are making rulings on various public display of religious symbols when those very same symbols are entrenched in and on the Supreme Court Building they reside, and on alot of federal buildings in D.C.

    And if people are somewhat upset, or unsettled, over what this curent justice has stated, then they would be simply appalled, and the public outcry horrendous, at many of the blatant public endorsements of the Christian faith by many of our past Supreme Court justices. What this current justice said is tame considering previous statements throughout the history of our Supreme Court.

    The below pictures are from the Supreme Court building and our National archives (just to list a couple). All of Moses and those dreaded 10 Commandments.
    Do you deny, then, that a clear separation of church and state is a critical foundation for this country, or do you use examples of where that line was crossed in the past do defend its continued crossing in the future?

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    Re: Judge Says There is a "Faith War" in the US

    I find it humorous, hypocritical, and yes very sad, that this very same Supreme Court, whose justices begin court sessions with a marshal shouting, "God save the United States and this honorable court"
    So let's get rid of it.

    You know what I'd really like to see -- the appointment of an unapologetic atheist who'd give a speech decrying the superstition and hypocrisy of organized religion.
    Last edited by Rojo; 04-29-2005 at 12:32 PM.
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    The Mad Monk Jaycint's Avatar
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    Re: Judge Says There is a "Faith War" in the US

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo

    You know what I'd really like to see -- the appointment of an unapologetic atheist who'd give a speech decrying the superstition and hypocrisy of organized religion.
    I'd be fine with that, free speech is for everyone. Even Brown and the atheist.

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    Re: Judge Says There is a "Faith War" in the US

    I'd be fine with that, free speech is for everyone. Even Brown and the atheist.
    I agree. But isn't it interesting that, while Brown's speech has raised a ruckus, the hypethetical atheist speech I mentioned is almost unimaginable.

    Yet, somehow, its the "people of faith" who are persecuted.
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

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    The Mad Monk Jaycint's Avatar
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    Re: Judge Says There is a "Faith War" in the US

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo
    I agree. But isn't it interesting that, while Brown's speech has raised a ruckus, the hypethetical atheist speech I mentioned is almost unimaginable.
    Rojo, do you mean the uproar would be worse for the atheist's speech itself or that the atheist would never be appointed to the position to begin with? I just want to make sure I am understanding your point correctly. On a side note my libertarian frame of mind would like to see us just do away with this government stuff as much as possible.

  16. #60
    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: Judge Says There is a "Faith War" in the US

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo
    I agree. But isn't it interesting that, while Brown's speech has raised a ruckus, the hypethetical atheist speech I mentioned is almost unimaginable.

    Yet, somehow, its the "people of faith" who are persecuted.
    Judge Brown's speech raised a ruckus by who? The Advocate, Wellston, Zimmerman? Do these people ever say anything positive or nice about people they consider conservative or religious?

    Any Judge Brown speech, regardless of place/time/content, would raise a ruckus by these types. I do not think these types are representative of all people. Not even the majority of voters in this country (Nov. '04 showed that).

    People of faith are only persecuted IMO by the afore-mentioned leftists. But I do not find this too bad of persecution. These people write articles. They obviously have not been able to sway voters with their rhetoric for at least 5-6 years. Let freedom of speech ring true for them. And let it ring true for Judge Brown when she is a guest speaker to whatever group she chooses. Even hate groups... if she so desires. She is given that right as are all citizens of this great country. It could effect her future, but it is still her right to SPEAK FREELY.
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