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Thread: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

  1. #31
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful
    Edgy language? Did something get edited out there?
    Calling someone a Nazi is edgy in my book, and it was totally unnecessary. The point could have been conveyed without that little comment. And you guys wonder why political threads were nearly banned here? It’s not that hard to figure out, everyone acts like a 3 year old in the sandbox.

    The warnings have been issued and if I see it again that person is going on a forced vacation.
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  3. #32
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Again... read the details concerning this situation in the report RF. You make it sound like he grabbed a copy of the Koran, stood in front of a prisoner, pulled his pants down and urinated on it intentionally. And that is not what had happened now was it.
    How does urine get on the prisoner's Koran unintentionally? How did it happen?

    The only excuses that I can come up is:

    The Guard was drunk and urinated down the vent.

    Than you have to ask why is there drunk soldiers on duty in a prison. Especially a prison such as this one.

    Or..

    The Guard was at his station and no one came to provide him a latrine break. This makes the most obvious sense to me, since I have first hand experience of what securtiy guards pull on duty, especially very young ones.

    Or,

    The Guard did it intentionally as he knew the vent went down to the prisoners.
    Last edited by RBA; 06-04-2005 at 04:48 PM.

  4. #33
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBloodedAmerican
    How does urine get on the prisoner's Koran unintentionally? How did it happen?
    According to the report printed in the Washington Post (and posted on page 1 by sava), it states...

    In other confirmed incidents, a guard's urine came through an air vent and splashed on a detainee and his Quran
    The guard admitted to the incident. It didn't look intentional, and the guard was reassigned.

    You also have to look at WHO is making these charges of mishandling the Koran.... the detainees! al Qaeda operatives are trained to charge torture when they are in detention, and specifically to charge abuse of the Quran to inflame fellow prisoners on the inside and potential sympathizers on the outside.

    The most inflammatory allegations have been not about abusing people, but about mishandling the Quran. Let’s understand what mishandling means. Under the rules later instituted by the Pentagon at Guantanamo, proper handling of the Quran means using two hands and wearing gloves when touching it. Which means that if any guard held the Quran with one hand or had neglected to put on gloves, this would be considered mishandling.

    Moreover, what were the Qurans doing there in the first place? The very possibility of mishandling Qurans arose because we gave them to each prisoner. What kind of crazy tolerance is this? Is there any other country that would give a prisoner precisely the religious text which that prisoner and those affiliated with him invoke to justify the slaughter of innocents? If the prisoners had to have reading material, I would have given them the book Portraits 9/11/01 — vignettes of the lives of those massacred on Sept. 11.

    Take away the Koran, and guess what... it can't be mishandled or abused.
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBloodedAmerican
    How does urine get on the prisoner's Koran unintentionally? How did it happen?

    The only excuses that I can come up is:

    The Guard was drunk and urinated down the vent.

    Than you have to ask why is there drunk soldiers on duty in a prison. Especially a prison such as this one.

    Or..

    The Guard was at his station and no one came to provide him a latrine break. This makes the most obvious sense to me, since I have first hand experience of what securtiy guards pull on duty, especially very young ones.

    Or,

    The Guard did it intentionally as he knew the vent went down to the prisoners.
    Sure are making alot of unsubstantiated assumptions here RBA. I guess you can believe whatever you want to.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Reds4Life
    It's fine to have political discussions, but I'm not going to put up with you calling people Nazis. Consider this your first and only warning.
    Wow. Now we can't use political terms to talk about politicians on the far, far right. Ooooookay, then. Backing away slowly. Original post edited for family fun.

  7. #36
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Is there any other country that would give a prisoner precisely the religious text which that prisoner and those affiliated with him invoke to justify the slaughter of innocents?
    Canada, all of Western Europe, Australia, New Zealand ... most western industrialized countries.
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    There is a reason they have the "Quran". It's used as a tool to get the prisoners to talk.

    Much like if you were in a christian cult and the leader used different verses in the Bible to lead you on a certain path like blowing up an abortion clinic. Well, if I'm an interviewer, I could most likely get you to open up by saying, "hey, I'm a Christian, can you read me some of your favorite passages out of your Bible." I could soon gain your trust and go on getting much more information out of you. What Christian would not use the opportunity to "spead the word". (So he thinks)

    Or they could be playing "Good cop, bad cop" with the same scenario. One interviewer would just scream about how he should throw that "Quran" in the toilet. Than, the good cop, would say how he is Muslim once the other interviewer is gone and this would provide an opening to gain the prisoner's trust.
    Last edited by RBA; 06-04-2005 at 05:14 PM.

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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    Sure are making alot of unsubstantiated assumptions here RBA. I guess you can believe whatever you want to.
    I'm not making assumptions, just trying to figure out how someone unintentionally urinates down an air duct How do you believe it happened?

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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    According to the report printed in the Washington Post (and posted on page 1 by sava), it states...



    The guard admitted to the incident. It didn't look intentional, and the guard was reassigned.

    You also have to look at WHO is making these charges of mishandling the Koran.... the detainees! al Qaeda operatives are trained to charge torture when they are in detention, and specifically to charge abuse of the Quran to inflame fellow prisoners on the inside and potential sympathizers on the outside.

    The most inflammatory allegations have been not about abusing people, but about mishandling the Quran. Let’s understand what mishandling means. Under the rules later instituted by the Pentagon at Guantanamo, proper handling of the Quran means using two hands and wearing gloves when touching it. Which means that if any guard held the Quran with one hand or had neglected to put on gloves, this would be considered mishandling.

    Moreover, what were the Qurans doing there in the first place? The very possibility of mishandling Qurans arose because we gave them to each prisoner. What kind of crazy tolerance is this? Is there any other country that would give a prisoner precisely the religious text which that prisoner and those affiliated with him invoke to justify the slaughter of innocents? If the prisoners had to have reading material, I would have given them the book Portraits 9/11/01 — vignettes of the lives of those massacred on Sept. 11.

    Take away the Koran, and guess what... it can't be mishandled or abused.
    Here's the thing: these people haven't been formally charged WITH ANYTHING. They have no access to representation and are held at the whim of the United States indefinitely. They aren't protected under the Geneva Convention because they aren't prisoners of war or enemy combatants technically. They've fallen through the cracks the Bush administration is making no efforts to fill Constitutionally. Because if the Constitution is brought to bear on Gitmo, they'd have to stop torturing and due process would have to be afforded these detainees. And that's the last thing the Bush gang wants.

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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBloodedAmerican
    I'm not making assumptions, just trying to figure out how someone unintentionally urinates down an air duct How do you believed it happened?
    Don't know. But I'm not gonna make assumptions. What makes you think it was down an air duct? The air duct could have been on an outside wall and the soldier stepped outside to pee. The report says the wind blew it into the duct.

    I'm just gonna exercise skepticism anytime one of those detainees starts leveling accusations of abuse. I find it hard to trust anything they say as credible. If some, such as Amnesty International, and others, want to believe them, then that is fine.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    Again... read the details concerning this situation in the report RF. You make it sound like he grabbed a copy of the Koran, stood in front of a prisoner, pulled his pants down and urinated on it intentionally. And that is not what had happened now was it.



    And Newsweek sure "stoked them flames" with that article didn't they? Should there be any accountability there?

    Oh... now it doesn't matter. You first tell me to go back and read the thread, because the Newsweek claim was proven true. I show you where it wasn't (as originally reported by Newsweek), and you say it now doesn't matter because abuse has occurred at Gitmo. Nice dodge.

    First define abuse. And then show specific recorded incidents of such abuse at Gitmo. I have read the accusations of abuse being thrown out by Amnesty International's recent report (William Schulz). But they can never really verify or give specific incidents of abuse. They say "we've heard reports of.."

    And Amnesty International is basing those allegations on people who were held in detention at Gitmo. Do you think these people's testimony who were captured in Afghanistan fighting for the Taliban, who hate America, are credible? I don't. Not when some have been released and are now back in Afghanistan fighting our military.

    In March, the Navy inspector general reported that, out of about 24,000 interrogations at Guantanamo, there were seven confirmed cases of abuse, “all of which were relatively minor.” In the eyes of history, compared to any other camp in any other war, this is an astonishingly small number. Two of the documented offenses involved “female interrogators who, on their own initiative, touched and spoke to detainees in a sexually suggestive manner.”

    Not exactly the gulag that Amensty International charges we are running. But then, I have never been a huge fan of this organization. Their definition of human rights violations differs from what most feel/think.
    The operations of a government-run and funded institution like Gitmo should be transparent, accountable to the tax-paying public, just like every other government institution. That's the whole bloody point. This place has no transparency and no accountability. They could be having hug-fests in there for all we know. NO ONE KNOWS--THAT'S THE SCARY PART.

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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    Don't know. But I'm not gonna make assumptions. What makes you think it was down an air duct? The air duct could have been on an outside wall and the soldier stepped outside to pee. The report says the wind blew it into the duct.
    That's one explanation. I find it hard to believe, but it's an explanation.

    The incident was not further explained.

    And why not?

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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    Here's the thing: these people haven't been formally charged WITH ANYTHING. They have no access to representation and are held at the whim of the United States indefinitely. They aren't protected under the Geneva Convention because they aren't prisoners of war or enemy combatants technically. They've fallen through the cracks the Bush administration is making no efforts to fill Constitutionally. Because if the Constitution is brought to bear on Gitmo, they'd have to stop torturing and due process would have to be afforded these detainees. And that's the last thing the Bush gang wants.
    The are not U.S. citizens, and therefore not subject to protection/rights given under our Constitution.

    A look at tribunals at Guantanamo Bay

    Associated Press

    Detainees first were flown to the U.S. Naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, from the U.S.-led war in Afghanistan in January 2002. The Bush administration considered them enemy fighters with no recourse to the U.S. legal system because they were foreigners held on foreign soil.

    In July 2004, the U.S. government hastily began holding "combatant status review tribunals" to determine whether hundreds of detainees should be classified as "enemy combatants."

    The move came a month after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled the detainees could challenge their detentions without charge or trial in U.S. courts. Dozens of cases are pending.

    Tribunals that ended in January 2005 were held by three-member panels led by a president for more than 550 detainees from more than 40 countries.

    Only 38 men have been released as a result of the tribunals.

    Many refused to attend.

    Detainees were not allowed lawyers, only a military-appointed military attorney as a "personal representative."

    At the hearings, the detainee is present only to hear unclassified evidence - usually a string of allegations. The prisoner is not allowed to attend another session hearing evidence considered classified to protect U.S. national security.

    A prisoner can choose to take a Muslim or Christian oath, a personal oath, or nothing.

    The personal representative reads accusations, and the prisoner responds.

    The prisoner can choose to answer questions, including from the "recorder," a government representative who acts as a prosecutor.

    He may also call witnesses, though the only ones who apparently have given testimony were other detainees.

    Classified evidence is reviewed separately, and then an administrative review panel decides if the prisoner has been properly classified as an enemy combatant.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966
    I am not sure how this became political, but my concern is with media outlets who run with stories that come from only one source and do not verify the validity of these stories (very-very much like the 60 Minutes II false story). This particular one caused protests in the Muslim world and people were killed in these protests. The 60 Minutes II story could have had an effect on our presidential election and brought about the resignation of a well-known news anchor.

    Freedom of the press is a great thing. Many in the Arab world can tell us this as they have been denied such rights for many years. But when stories like this (like this = not valid) are put in print, they can have serious ramifications (16 dead). I wonder how many add'l attacks were brought upon our military men & women b/c of this untrue story? I doubt we will ever know.

    Sometimes I think in the glee to be "the one" to break some big news, media outlets take a chance that their sources are right. And when they are wrong... there can be consequences. Is taking a chance to break the big one worth the lives of other humans? Lives that may still be here today if not for the invalid story of an outlet that tried to break a big one.

    I hope Newsweek also delivers an apology to our entire military and units at Guantanamo Bay for their story that portrayed those soldiers in a falsehood. Although I won't hold my breath as it seems that they are still trying to say that the Koran story may not be true, but it may not be false either. Still trying their best to prove it, I guess. Let's hope they let the families of 16 dead people know the truth whenever they finally figure it out.
    I tell you what: if Newsweek offers an apology to the fighting men and women of our armed forces for their error (and it was an error), then it will be exactly one more than the Bush Administration has given the soldiers and their families for misleading this country into war in the first place.

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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    The are not U.S. citizens, and therefore not subject to protection/rights given under our Constitution.

    A look at tribunals at Guantanamo Bay

    Associated Press

    Detainees first were flown to the U.S. Naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, from the U.S.-led war in Afghanistan in January 2002. The Bush administration considered them enemy fighters with no recourse to the U.S. legal system because they were foreigners held on foreign soil.

    In July 2004, the U.S. government hastily began holding "combatant status review tribunals" to determine whether hundreds of detainees should be classified as "enemy combatants."

    The move came a month after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled the detainees could challenge their detentions without charge or trial in U.S. courts. Dozens of cases are pending.

    Tribunals that ended in January 2005 were held by three-member panels led by a president for more than 550 detainees from more than 40 countries.

    Only 38 men have been released as a result of the tribunals.

    Many refused to attend.

    Detainees were not allowed lawyers, only a military-appointed military attorney as a "personal representative."

    At the hearings, the detainee is present only to hear unclassified evidence - usually a string of allegations. The prisoner is not allowed to attend another session hearing evidence considered classified to protect U.S. national security.

    A prisoner can choose to take a Muslim or Christian oath, a personal oath, or nothing.

    The personal representative reads accusations, and the prisoner responds.

    The prisoner can choose to answer questions, including from the "recorder," a government representative who acts as a prosecutor.

    He may also call witnesses, though the only ones who apparently have given testimony were other detainees.

    Classified evidence is reviewed separately, and then an administrative review panel decides if the prisoner has been properly classified as an enemy combatant.
    Thanks, I was already aware of this. But the Bush Administration is making no effort or move to give them ANY particular status. He and the military are making it up as they go along. That's NOT the American Way.

    Imagine if Saudi Arabia decided they could lock up any Western looking person without charge, unaccountable to International or Constitutional law. Would you be in favor of that?


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