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Thread: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

  1. #46
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    The are not U.S. citizens, and therefore not subject to protection/rights given under our Constitution.
    They aren't prisoners of war either, so they're not protected by the Geneva Convention. The Bush administration wants to be able to have it's cake and eat it too by not having these people be protected by anything. I wonder why they might desire such a thing?

    Regardless of why they want it this way it's hurting our country.
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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  3. #47
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBloodedAmerican
    That's one explanation. I find it hard to believe, but it's an explanation.


    And why not?
    I don't know RBA. Maybe our Congress needs to spend taxpayer monies and do a full investigation.

    Maybe the soldier had irritable bowel syndrome, or a weak bladder. It looks like what he did was wrong, in that he simply stepped outside to pee when he should have went to use the proper facilities. But it wasn't intentional. Maybe they just didn't want to embarass this soldier after they already reassigned/reprimanded him. They felt that was enough.

    He obviously was never taught to not pee in the wind!
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful
    They aren't prisoners of war either, so they're not protected by the Geneva Convention. The Bush administration wants to be able to have it's cake and eat it too by not having these people be protected by anything.
    What should we have done with these prisoners once they had been taken alive on the battlefields of Afghanistan? Where should they have been taken or encarcerated until investigations/interrogations could be down? I fully acknowledge that it has been a slow process, and not the most ideal situation; but what should we have done?

    I wonder why they might desire such a thing?
    I'm all ears. You tell me.
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  5. #49
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Where should they have been taken or encarcerated until investigations/interrogations could be down?
    You've got to be kidding me. How about taking them as POW's and following the Geneva Convention guidelines like we promised?

    You'd be falling all over yourself to condemn a different country holding American soldiers hostage without charging them with anything or treating them according to the Geneva Conventions. The hypocricy you seem capable of is stunning to me.
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    What should we have done with these prisoners once they had been taken alive on the battlefields of Afghanistan? Where should they have been taken or encarcerated until investigations/interrogations could be down? I fully acknowledge that it has been a slow process, and not the most ideal situation; but what should we have done?



    I'm all ears. You tell me.
    They should have been proclaimed prisoners of war if they were taken from the field of battle. If not, they should have been questioned and released.

  7. #51
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful
    You've got to be kidding me. How about taking them as POW's and following the Geneva Convention guidelines like we promised?

    You'd be falling all over yourself to condemn a different country holding American soldiers hostage without charging them with anything or treating them according to the Geneva Conventions. The hypocricy you seem capable of is stunning to me.
    Hypocrisy how?

    These prisoners are being treated properly and fairly. Far better then when one of ours is captured by these terrorists (we're lucky to get them back alive). Why not be in more of an uproar over that.

    You have yet to prove any of the abuse accusations at Gitmo. And when cases of abuse were discovered at Abu Graib (or at Gitmo) we moved quickly to investigate, take corrective action when it's needed, and discipline those that were responsible. IMO, that says alot about us as a nation/people. We're not perfect; but we don't condone nor approve of it when it situations like this are brought out. And we want it corrected when it occurs, and those responsible held accountable.

    All you want to do is use something like this for your own partisan political motives. You look for situations like this in order to try and make something big out of it, and embarass an administration you are in opposition with from an ideologocal standpoint. Pure and simple.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    Hypocrisy how?

    These prisoners are being treated properly and fairly. Far better then when one of ours is captured by these terrorists (we're lucky to get them back alive). Why not be in more of an uproar over that.
    Apples to oranges. You're comparing the actions of the U.S. Government with those of terrorist groups. I think we can all agree that the U.S. Government should be held to a higher standard of conduct (vis. treatment of prisoners) than the actions of terrorist groups in regards to prisoner treatment.

    Somebody's got to set an example.

  9. #53
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Yes, the US is doing better than the terrorists when it comes to human rights violations. Let's have a parade because that certainly is impressive.

    When your kid brings home a D do you say, "well hey now the neighbor kid failed so you really didn't do that bad"? No, I doubt that you do. You get upset because that level of performance isn't acceptable.

    What we've done in Cuba and in Iraqi prisons shouldn't be acceptable to anyone. And yet it is, to most of the people who voted for Bush. That's frightening.
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful
    What we've done in Cuba and in Iraqi prisons shouldn't be acceptable to anyone. And yet it is, to most of the people who voted for Bush. That's frightening.
    That's pure BS and you know it. When Abu Ghraib occurred, no one condoned it or looked the other way (including anyone that voted for Bush). We were just as appauled, shocked, and disappointed that a segment of our military would perform such acts on prisoners, and bring disrespect on our military. We demanded investigations, that the prison conditions be improved, and that those held responsible brought to justice.

    That has occurred RF. This administration has done everything that should have been done when Abu Ghraid occurred. But your political partisanship refuses to allow you to accept that.

    And as far as Gitmo goes. You have yet to show any specific instances of physical abuse of prisoners there... only accusations.

    We've been arguing on this thread about what?....people mishandling the Quran. Wow! That's real abuse! And again, they come from such reliable sources - the detainees themselves. Many which have been investigated and shown to be false. And again, what ones were discovered (minor) were addressed/corrected - and when it required disciplinary action, then they took it.

    Isn't that what we should have done?

    Ah yes - it shouldn't have happened to begin with. I agree. But when something like this does, then the mark of a nation (and it's people), that do have high standards, is that they act quickly to address the wrong.

    We can argue all day about how these prisoners should be classified - POWs or enemy combatants.

    As far as I'm concerned, those at Gitmo are terrorists. And while they are encarcerated, they should be treated humanely (and they are). And until we can complete the individual investigations/background checks on each of these individuals to see what they level of their involvement was, then that is where they should stay.

    You do realize several prisoners released by the U.S. military from a detention center in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have rejoined their comrades in arms and taken part in fresh attacks on U.S.? So yeah, as long as those at Gitmo are treated humanely, I'm in no hurry to have them released while investigations are pending.
    Last edited by GAC; 06-05-2005 at 09:26 AM.
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  11. #55
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    And as far as Gitmo goes. You have yet to show any specific instances of physical abuse of prisoners there... only accusations.
    If there hadn't been pictures in Abu Ghraib you'd be saying the same thing about that.

    What purpose does Gitmo serve GAC? Why can't we have the prison in America? It would silence critics immediately and show that the US is trying to do the right thing. It's not like the prison is helping our standing in the world, which does matter whether you want it to or not.

    You are aware that terrorist attacks are up in the past two years, right?
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful
    If there hadn't been pictures in Abu Ghraib you'd be saying the same thing about that.
    Uh, no I wouldn't. Do you live your life by assumptions? Who took those pics? Some pretty stupid and irresponsible miltary personell there. I'm glad they got caught, and I hope justice is swift. I also hope it has sent a message to the rest in our military that this type of thing will not be tolerated and is not representative of not only our military as a whole; but we as a nation.

    The accusations coming from Gitmo have coming mainly from those encarcerated RF. I find their words to be most unreliable and untrustworthy. Obviously you don't. But the fact of the matter is that the Pentagon did take what allegations were coming out from there seriously and investigated them. And when they found violations, they dealt with them.

    Again... neither you (or Amnesty International) can show any documented cases of physical abuse/torture at Gitmo. You still continue to avoid that question.

    It seems your only concern is the the way they have been classified -i.e. enemy combatants vs P.O.W.s (which would then fall under the Geneva Convention). I've read/reviewed the Geneva Convention articles. Can you show me where these prisoners at Gitmo are being treated in violation of the Geneva Convention as far as it's regulations on the treatment of prisoners?


    What purpose does Gitmo serve GAC? Why can't we have the prison in America? It would silence critics immediately and show that the US is trying to do the right thing. It's not like the prison is helping our standing in the world, which does matter whether you want it to or not.
    I think you're trying to make more out of Gitmo then what is really there. I haven't read where the rest of the world is outraged over it. Where, outside of left-leaning organizations such as Amnesty International, are the world governments voicing their protests with the U.S. over Gitmo? Where are their ambassadors/representatives showing outrage over it? Where's the UN's protest? Show me where even Arab/Muslim countries/governments have registered protests with the U.S. government over Gitmo? Yes, there are some organizations protesting. But it's not at the level of outrage you seem to want to claim.

    Why should we build or try to house these prisoners in the U.S. when we have an overcrowding problem within our prisons as it is? You show me how locating them here would make it right? What does location have anything to do with how well/bad they are treated? They are gonna still be encarcerated, interrogated, and treated no differently, whether they are at Gitmo or in the U.S.

    And personally, due to the uniqueness of this situation, I want these individuals isolated. I don't want them anywhere near our prison population.

    And re-locating them here would not silence critics llike you. You's simply move onto or find domething else to be outraged over in this particular situation. If they housed these individuals in a five star Ramada in while they are being investigated/processed, you'd complain that that it wasn't a Holiday Inn.

    Nothing this administration does, or will do, will ever satisfy you simply due to the ideological differences that exist. That's the pure and simple truth. If they turn left, then you'll wonder why they didn't turn right.

    You are aware that terrorist attacks are up in the past two years, right?
    That's obvious. We are at war (and not just Iraq). They were killing us throughout the 90's and we did nothing or very little. So we are now taking that war to them, and it's only natural they they are gonna fight back.

    Hypothetically speaking - lets say we never went into Iraq, but concentrated only on Afghanistan and Al Qaeda around the world. Do you think terrorist attacks would have still increased? They sure would have. So the point you are trying to make is mote at best.

    I'm glad that we are going after these terrorists. We should have been doing it for over a decade now. We looked at it with indifference or that it wasn't a problem. Then a 9/11 happens. I wish we had even more support from the rest of the world community.

    Do you actually think that if we had left them alone they would leave us alone? Are you that gullible? As long as there is a presence in the Middle East, and we continue to support Israel, then these terrorists are gonna attack/kill us at every oportunity. They have been for awhile now. It's time we took the batle to them.

    And yes RF, we have done great harm to Al Qaeda, regardless if you want to acknowledge it or not.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    GAC, do you honestly think you will live to see an end to this "war on terror"? We can fight them for the next 50 years and they will still be there. And sooner or later this whole "we fight them there so we dont have to here" crap is going to be exposed for what it is. (In no way am I saying I am hoping for this, I just think it is a matter of time)

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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by kbrake
    GAC, do you honestly think you will live to see an end to this "war on terror"? We can fight them for the next 50 years and they will still be there. And sooner or later this whole "we fight them there so we dont have to here" crap is going to be exposed for what it is. (In no way am I saying I am hoping for this, I just think it is a matter of time)
    I think we should fight the war on terror as long as it takes. And yes, "over there." Heck, I'm willing to have my taxes raised to do it.


    I DON'T think we should bomb an impotent and contained Iraq to stir up the viper's nest.
    Last edited by Falls City Beer; 06-05-2005 at 10:16 PM.

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    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    And yes RF, we have done great harm to Al Qaeda, regardless if you want to acknowledge it or not.
    And yet terrorism is up.

    I haven't read where the rest of the world is outraged over it.
    You don't tend to seek out information contrary to your beliefs, so that doesn't surprise me. If you want me to dig up some links I'd be more than happy to, although they won't change your mind at all. Because nothing ever does.

    Why should we build or try to house these prisoners in the U.S. when we have an overcrowding problem within our prisons as it is? You show me how locating them here would make it right?
    GAC, I don't mean this in a mean way at all, but your ignorance is showing.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay

    The peculiar legal status of Guantanamo Bay was a factor in the choice of Guantanamo as a detention center. Because sovereignty of Guantanamo Bay ultimately resides with Cuba, the U.S. government argued unsuccessfully that people detained at Guantanamo were legally outside of the U.S. and did not have the Constitutional rights that they would have if they were held on U.S. territory (see Cuban American Bar Ass'n, Inc. v. Christopher, 43 F.3d 1412 (11th Cir. 1995)). In 2004, the Supreme Court rejected this argument in the case Rasul v. Bush with the majority decision and ruled that prisoners in Guantanamo have access to American courts, citing the fact that the U.S. has exclusive control over Guantanamo Bay.

    The U.S. classifies the prisoners held at Camp Delta and Camp Echo as illegal enemy combatants, but has not held the Article 5 tribunals that would be required by international law for it to do so. This would grant them the rights of the Fourth Geneva Convention (GCIV), as opposed to the more common Third Geneva Convention (GCIII) which deals exclusively with prisoners of war. On November 9, 2004 US District Court Judge James Robertson ruled that the Bush Administration had overstepped its authority to try such prisoners as enemy combatants in a military tribunal and denying them access to the evidence used against them.

    Three British prisoners released in 2004 without charge have alleged that there is ongoing torture, sexual degradation, forced drugging and religious persecution being committed by U.S. forces at Guantanamo Bay and have released a 115-page dossier detailing these accusations (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/au...uan-a06.shtml). They also accuse British authorities of knowing about the torture and failing to respond. Their accounts have been confirmed by two former French prisoners, a former Swedish prisoner, and a former Australian prisoner. In response to accusations, US Navy Secretary Gordon England has claimed that a Navy inspector general has performed a review of the practices at Guantanamo and concluded that it was "being operated at very high standards."

    Former Guantanamo detainee Moazzam Begg, freed last month after nearly three years in captivity, has accused his American captors of torturing him and other detainees arrested in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Mr Begg, in his first broadcast interview since his release, claimed that he "witnessed two people get beaten so badly that I believe it caused their deaths".

    On November 30, 2004, The New York Times published excerpts from an internal memo leaked from the US administration, [2] (http://nytimes.com/2004/11/30/politi...q8yXt1yEg4X28g) referring to a report from the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC). The report points out several activities which, it said, were "tantamount to torture": exposure to loud noise or music, prolonged extreme temperatures, or beatings. It also reported the existence of a behavior science team (BSCT), also called 'Biscuit', and the fact physicians of the base communicate confidential medical information to the interrogation teams (weaknesses, phobias, etc.), resulting in the prisoners losing confidence in the medical team of the base. Access of the ICRC to the base was conditional, as is normal for ICRC humanitarian operations, to the confidentiality of their report; sources have reported heated debates had taken place at the ICRC headquarters, as some of those involved wanted to make the report public, or confront the US administration. The newspaper said the administration and the Pentagon had seen the ICRC report in July, 2004 but rejected its findings.[3] (http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlates...645430,00.html) [4] (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...oryID=6951969). The story was originally reported in several newspapers, including The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/internatio...13640,00.html), and the ICRC reacted to the article when the report was leaked in May.[5]
    Try reading differing opinions before making up your mind. You don't even have anywhere near all the facts, and yet you're convinced that we're not doing anything wrong.
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    CELEBRATION TIME RBA's Avatar
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    I would think housing these prisoners in the Desert Southwest or in any of the numerous moth balled military installations would be a lot cheaper than housing them on part of an isolated location on an unfriendly island. The US is probably spending a small fortune keeping that camp operational. (Makes you wonder what company has the contract to maintain that base? I'm sure it's not outsource to Castro's Cuba. Would guessing Haliburton be close too the truth?)

    We are going to have these types of prisoners for years to come and I would think that a prison with private contract guards would be the way to go. It would provide some jobs in the current stagnant economy.
    Last edited by RBA; 06-05-2005 at 10:23 PM.


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