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Thread: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

  1. #61
    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Does anyone else here realize that Newsweek admitted that they were wrong? Hard telling by reading some of the posts here.

    And Amnesty International... are they looking into Geneva Convention violations and human rights violations by "the insurgents"? Do those who are so concerned about tha Quran and the accusations of Amnesty International (who talks to detainees and takes their word for truth) concern themselves with the blatant violations of the insurgents? I am not talking about peeing on someone's book... I am talking about blowing up innocent civilians (that includes children and women), I am talking about cutting off the heads of civilian workers, I am talking about executing civilian workers and hanging their bodies from a public bridge, I am talking about flying planes into buildings, I am talking about Kurds being murdered.

    Comments? Tell me how you feel about butchering civilians as compared to peeing on a Quran.
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  3. #62
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Like I said before RFA, we're better than the terrorists. I don't consider that impressive.

    I'd hope people would want to hold their country to a higher standard than simply "better than the Taliban/Al Qaeda".
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966
    Does anyone else here realize that Newsweek admitted that they were wrong? Hard telling by reading some of the posts here.

    And Amnesty International... are they looking into Geneva Convention violations and human rights violations by "the insurgents"? Do those who are so concerned about tha Quran and the accusations of Amnesty International (who talks to detainees and takes their word for truth) concern themselves with the blatant violations of the insurgents? I am not talking about peeing on someone's book... I am talking about blowing up innocent civilians (that includes children and women), I am talking about cutting off the heads of civilian workers, I am talking about executing civilian workers and hanging their bodies from a public bridge, I am talking about flying planes into buildings, I am talking about Kurds being murdered.

    Comments? Tell me how you feel about butchering civilians as compared to peeing on a Quran.
    Exactly. How many Korans did that suicide bomber desecrate/destroy when he blew up that mosque last week (along with the innocent)? Where is the outrage among the Muslim community when their own people are slaughtering the innocent?

    Organizations like Amnesty International won't touch such matters as these. They instead feel it is much more worthy of their time to give credence to the unsubstantiated claims of terrorists held at Gitmo.

    And heck yes I want our nation to have a higher standard. But some of you are demanding absolute perfection. A nation with high standards will still make mistakes and screw up. But where those high standards come into play is when they acknowledge those wrongs, address/correct them, apologize when needed, and try to improve.

    IMO - America does this as best they can.
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  5. #64
    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful
    Like I said before RFA, we're better than the terrorists. I don't consider that impressive.

    I'd hope people would want to hold their country to a higher standard than simply "better than the Taliban/Al Qaeda".
    And I do. And I believe that our leaders do too. Some want to believe the words of those who have "earned" a cell in Gitmo. Do those in Gitmo lie or do they do anything in their ability to make the U.S. look bad? I cannot speak for them as I have never experienced a day at Gitmo. And neither can you... and in the same regard what takes place at Gitmo (you CANNOT speak about what happens there in truth, b/c you do not know). The big difference is... I trust my country and you trust the accusations of people (terrorists) who earn the right to stay at Gitmo. That is a HUGE difference. Maybe you are right and I am wrong. Or maybe I am right and you are wrong. I know one thing for sure.... NEWSWEEK admitted to being wrong. However, some here still behave as if the original Newsweek story (the topic starter) is factual. Why? I don't know. Perhaps b/c they believe terrorists who live in Gitmo nowadays.

    You do not know if there are abuses at Gitmo. And do not justify your words with Abu Gharib (a handful of bad soldiers, not high officials... check the record). Two different things. Not one in the same. Not if it happens here, then it must happen there. No. It amazes me how people that claim to be U.S. citizens will take for granted the words spoken by terrorists. And these people are willing to trash the U.S. gov't based on the words of people who are involved w/ groups who blowup innocent people. Groups who murder people who do not follow their religion (are you defending religious types?!?!). Think about it. And after thinking about it, give factual abuses from Gitmo. And please do not base "your facts" on the words of terrorists who reside there. I look forward to the factual cases that you may present.
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  6. #65
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by kbrake
    GAC, do you honestly think you will live to see an end to this "war on terror"? We can fight them for the next 50 years and they will still be there. And sooner or later this whole "we fight them there so we dont have to here" crap is going to be exposed for what it is. (In no way am I saying I am hoping for this, I just think it is a matter of time)
    Will you or I live to see it the end? That I can't say. But that does not mean it should not be addressed does it? These groups nailed us pretty hard throughout the last decade of indifference on our part. How many innocent Americans and other foreign nationals have died and been slaughtered via various terrorist acts over the last 10-15 years, and by groups such as Al Qeada and Bin Laden (among others)?

    When were we gonna take it seriously when Bin Laden declares war on the U.S. in 1998 and tells his followers to send America a message with body bags attached? He accused the American people of being weak-willed, and that they haven't got the spirit to fight. He also swre to bring America down economically. That is what worried me, because it was/is possible. Look what the events of 1 day (9-11) did to us economically.

    I'll be honest with you (and I've said this before) - our government was partially to blame for the events that lead to 9-11 because of their inactivity and indifference towards Bin Laden/Al Qeada. We never seriously went after these people since the very 1st WTC bombing, several emabssy bombings, The USS Cole, etc. Our leaders from both Parties have failed us.

    Yeah, we went after and captured a blind cleric and a few others, and then paraded them around like we had done something grand -but we weren't going after the people/organization that was backing them. We kept cutting off branches here and there (but those always grow back) - we never went after the "root" of that tree.

    America and the world community over the last 20+ years, has allowed, via their indifference, for these terrorist networks to grow and become entrenched around the world. It seemed it was always someone else's problem.

    Well, now that problem has GROWN. And now we have to face it head on. There is no way we can avoid it now. Are they gonna leave us alone?

    Lets say we had never went into Iraq but concentrated our military only in Afghanistan. It wouldn't have made any difference to these terrorists. Instead of flocking to Iraq, they'd now be doing the same in Afghanistan. It wouldn't matter where we chose to fight - the terrorists would congregate there to oppose us.

    And personally, I think it could have been worse with Afghanistan's terrain/mountaineous terrain. Just ask the Ruskies.
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    Member kbrake's Avatar
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    I'll be honest with you (and I've said this before) - our government was partially to blame for the events that lead to 9-11 because of their inactivity and indifference towards Bin Laden/Al Qeada. We never seriously went after these people since the very 1st WTC bombing, several emabssy bombings, The USS Cole, etc. Our leaders from both Parties have failed us.
    I couldnt agree more with that statement, especially the last line. My entire point though is that these people live there and they will wage this war for as long as it takes. When do we say enough is enough and quit sending our soldiers to die for a war we may never see an end to? My solution would be to quit pissing them off. I think that obviously bin Laden has to be dealt with, but the more we kill them the more angry they will be, then when they retaliate 9/11 style, we will be outraged and want more blood. If things stay the way they are we will never see an end to this war.

  8. #67
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Some want to believe the words of those who have "earned" a cell in Gitmo.
    Odd how we've released many prisoners without charging them with anything or punishing them further. How did they earn their cell again?

    I guess you'd be fine with spending a year or two in jail, not being charged with anything, and then being let go though eh?
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
    --Oscar Wilde

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    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful
    Odd how we've released many prisoners without charging them with anything or punishing them further. How did they earn their cell again?

    I guess you'd be fine with spending a year or two in jail, not being charged with anything, and then being let go though eh?
    I am still awaiting your tales of abuse. Ones that you can verify with fact. That is what this thread is about. Give me the names of those you want to bring into this in your attempt to change the subject. Tell me about their everyday lives that were interuppted by the U.S. government. And I want more verification and fact on the Quran abuse. I'd also like to hear...

    * Tales that al qaida operatives are not trained to charge torture and abuse of a book when they are detained. This does wonders to incite fellow prisoners and potential sympathizers on the outside (seems as though it even works on our own citizens).

    * Tales of how we require our personnel at Gitmo to wear gloves and use two hands when handling the Quran. This means that any guard who used only one hand and may have touched it w/out gloves is considered abusive. Why? Because non-believers are not allowed to touch this holy book in the opinions of believers. Therefore, touch is abuse. How about that?

    * So let us compare this form of abuse to murdering innocent civilians (whether by beheading or indiscriminate bombs). Touching a book with bare unholy hands vs. decapitating a civilian. Let me hear the comparisons and the charges from Amnesty International reagrding the slaughter of innocent civilians by the insurgents.

    * Tales of the Bible being given to those kidnapped by insurgents. Do the insurgents handle the Bilble with the respect that Christians demand or is it a moot question b/c who cares about the Bible when their prisoners will be decapitated in the end anyhow?

    * The same people in our country who demand justice on the "allegated abuses of the Quran" are the same ones who think it is freedom of speech to put a crucifix in a jar of urine and display it in a museum. These same people also think it is considered freedom of speech when they take a painting of the Virgin Mary and smear elephant crap on it and adorn porn on it. These things received taxpayer funding and a supportive ACLU brief.
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966
    I am still awaiting your tales of abuse. Ones that you can verify with fact. That is what this thread is about. Give me the names of those you want to bring into this in your attempt to change the subject. Tell me about their everyday lives that were interuppted by the U.S. government. And I want more verification and fact on the Quran abuse. I'd also like to hear...
    What about innocent until proven guilty? Does that not apply to people cursed by fate to have not been born a citizen of the USA?

    Why do you assume that these people, whose names and/or faces you do not know, are guilty of something? Why not assume their innocence? Surely the majority of Muslims are not terrorists.
    "It's easier to give up. I'm not a very vocal player. I lead by example. I take the attitude that I've got to go out and do it. Because of who I am, I've got to give everything I've got to come back."
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966
    * The same people in our country who demand justice on the "allegated abuses of the Quran" are the same ones who think it is freedom of speech to put a crucifix in a jar of urine and display it in a museum. These same people also think it is considered freedom of speech when they take a painting of the Virgin Mary and smear elephant crap on it and adorn porn on it. These things received taxpayer funding and a supportive ACLU brief.
    And on this tangent, you don't have to respect what people are "saying," but you do have to respect their right to say it.
    "It's easier to give up. I'm not a very vocal player. I lead by example. I take the attitude that I've got to go out and do it. Because of who I am, I've got to give everything I've got to come back."
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966
    I am still awaiting your tales of abuse. Ones that you can verify with fact. That is what this thread is about. Give me the names of those you want to bring into this in your attempt to change the subject. Tell me about their everyday lives that were interuppted by the U.S. government. And I want more verification and fact on the Quran abuse. I'd also like to hear...

    * Tales that al qaida operatives are not trained to charge torture and abuse of a book when they are detained. This does wonders to incite fellow prisoners and potential sympathizers on the outside (seems as though it even works on our own citizens).

    * Tales of how we require our personnel at Gitmo to wear gloves and use two hands when handling the Quran. This means that any guard who used only one hand and may have touched it w/out gloves is considered abusive. Why? Because non-believers are not allowed to touch this holy book in the opinions of believers. Therefore, touch is abuse. How about that?

    * So let us compare this form of abuse to murdering innocent civilians (whether by beheading or indiscriminate bombs). Touching a book with bare unholy hands vs. decapitating a civilian. Let me hear the comparisons and the charges from Amnesty International reagrding the slaughter of innocent civilians by the insurgents.

    * Tales of the Bible being given to those kidnapped by insurgents. Do the insurgents handle the Bilble with the respect that Christians demand or is it a moot question b/c who cares about the Bible when their prisoners will be decapitated in the end anyhow?

    * The same people in our country who demand justice on the "allegated abuses of the Quran" are the same ones who think it is freedom of speech to put a crucifix in a jar of urine and display it in a museum. These same people also think it is considered freedom of speech when they take a painting of the Virgin Mary and smear elephant crap on it and adorn porn on it. These things received taxpayer funding and a supportive ACLU brief.
    No one knows these tales of abuse. That's the PROBLEM! I'll say it again for the thousandth time: NO ONE KNOWS BECAUSE GITMO CAN'T BE WATCHED/SURVEYED BY A DISINTERESTED, OBJECTIVE 3RD PARTY. IT'S UNACCOUNTABLE TO AMERICAN TAXPAYERS AND AMERICAN TAXPAYERS ARE FOOTING THE BILL. THAT'S SCARY. AND THAT'S NOT THE WAY THIS COUNTRY OPERATES.

  13. #72
    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    No one knows these tales of abuse. That's the PROBLEM! I'll say it again for the thousandth time: NO ONE KNOWS BECAUSE GITMO CAN'T BE WATCHED/SURVEYED BY A DISINTERESTED, OBJECTIVE 3RD PARTY. IT'S UNACCOUNTABLE TO AMERICAN TAXPAYERS AND AMERICAN TAXPAYERS ARE FOOTING THE BILL. THAT'S SCARY. AND THAT'S NOT THE WAY THIS COUNTRY OPERATES.
    In times of war.,.. yes, this country does operate that way. You do not even have to look further than 100 years ago to understand this. It is only some in today's society that thinks every single thing has to be monitored and checked. They cannot be further from the truth w/ these thoughts. When was this made a law that everything has to be monitored and checked? I am interested to know. My understanding was always that our gov't had the right to keep certain things classified for certain periods of time.

    Does that mean that something is wrong? I guess it depends on who you ask. Are some motivated by nothing more than political reasons for non-factual allegations? Yep. Has every war that this country fought had some soldiers who turned bad and did bad things to the enemy. Yep. Were Dems and/or Repubs in the White House when these things happened? Yep, both at different times. Is it possible to make every single soldier (thousands upon thousands) follow the law? Nope. Did it stop us from finishing the job in Nazi Germany or 1940's Japan? Nope.

    The words of detainees are not good enough for me. They may be good for others, but not me.
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966
    The words of detainees are not good enough for me. They may be good for others, but not me.
    Which is why there needs to be oversight. If they are prisoners of war, then they are prisoners of war. If they are detained because they are dark-skinned and once lived in Afghanistan, they need to be charged in order to be held in custody.

    Right now, the administration is operating outside of both U.S. and International law; they are following neither rule. They are in essence making up the rules as they go along. Tyrannies do not follow the rule of law, for example. Again, I ask you, would you be okay with the Saudis setting up their own Gitmo where they keep Western looking people without charging them, without representation, just because they're Western looking? GAC didn't answer that question, maybe you will?

    There are rules. There is law. Without it there is chaos.

    I do think it's quaint that the Bush administration falls all over themselves to support the word of Amnesty International's investigations into human rights abuses in Cuba, China, or North Korea, but suddenly when the spotlight shines on the good ole USA, their word is preposterous, absurd and unfounded.

    Convenient, eh?

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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by zombie-a-go-go
    What about innocent until proven guilty? Does that not apply to people cursed by fate to have not been born a citizen of the USA?

    Why do you assume that these people, whose names and/or faces you do not know, are guilty of something? Why not assume their innocence? Surely the majority of Muslims are not terrorists.
    Innocent till proven guilty? Only if you're white.

  16. #75
    The Mad Monk Jaycint's Avatar
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    Re: Newsweek Wrong In Report That Causes Protests & Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    If they are detained because they are dark-skinned and once lived in Afghanistan, they need to be charged in order to be held in custody.

    Again, I ask you, would you be okay with the Saudis setting up their own Gitmo where they keep Western looking people without charging them, without representation, just because they're Western looking? GAC didn't answer that question, maybe you will?

    I almost hate to jump into this mess but I gotta ask. How is this suddenly about race? Do you REALLY believe that the only reason they were locked up and sent to Gitmo is because they are olive-skinned in complexion? I'm asking because I really can't bring myself to believe that that's what you think. Did you think they were going to find a bunch of caucasian Al-Qaeda members in Afghanistan to bring over and lock up?


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