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Thread: Fallout (Teammates react to Graves' departure)

  1. #1
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Good? Bad? Ugly?

    It seems like DFAing Jimenez was a popular move in the clubhouse. However, I could see the Graves move really backfiring. I'd hate to see guys like Kearns and Dunn, or even Casey and Randa get peaved at management b/c of this move and bring the rest of the team attitude wise. You need to have players that show respect to the organization, but at the same time the organization needs to show some loyalty to its players.

    It seems that given his track record as a decent reliever and leader in the clubhouse, a demand for a public apology and demotion to middle relief would have been a reasonable course of action. This team doesn't have the depth to simply give assets away, even struggling ones. We can only hope that one of the teams in need of bullpen help will trade for him thinking they won't be able to pick him off the wire. Regardless of our record, this is starting to look like a VERY pivotal year for the future of the Redlegs.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 05-23-2005 at 05:21 PM.

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  3. #2
    You're soaking in it! MartyFan's Avatar
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    Re: Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick
    It seems like DFAing Jimenez was a popular move in the clubhouse. However, I could see the Graves move really backfiring. It seems that given his track record as a decent reliever, a demand for a public apology and demotion to middle relief would have been a reasonable course of action. This team doesn't have the depth to simply give assets away. We can only hope that one of the teams in need of bullpen help will trade for him thinking they won't be able to pick him off the wire.

    I'd hate too see guys like Kearns and Dunn get peaved at management b/c of this move and bring the rest of the team down with tme. You want to have players that show respect to the organization, but at the same time the organization needs to show some loyalty to its players. Regardless of our record, this is starting to look like a VERY pivotal year for the future of the Redlegs.
    I get what you re saying...I heard clips of Junior and Wilson responding to the move...they are not real happy bout it...but honestly while Dunn and Kearns are good players I think they need to see this as a wake up call...Not so much Dunn as Kearns...It still hacks me off that he didn't go out there for extra BP...I mean at least make a show of it.

    And I think this is one of those moves that was made to make a HUGE statement to everyone..Graves as far as I know was well liked by his team mates...maybe this is like saying to the rest of the team..."One more screw up and Casey goes!"

    I love the move and hope that it works out great for everyone...Graves will go to another team and it will be fun to see him come back to Cincy a few times a year.
    "Sometimes, it's not the sexiest moves that put you over the top," Krivsky said. "It's a series of transactions that help you get there."

  4. #3
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    Re: Good? Bad? Ugly?

    I think if you are making moves because you're worried about how the other players will react, you're in trouble.

    Danny Graves was awful this year and he hadn't been that great for the last couple of years. Players realize this. Sure, he was a nice guy--but he just wasn't performing. He had no business staying in Cincinnati.
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  5. #4
    Moderator Tommyjohn25's Avatar
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    Re: Good? Bad? Ugly?

    I would say it's pretty bold of Wilson to say anything detrimental about anything this organization does, seeing as how he has a similar ERA.
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  6. #5
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Good? Bad? Ugly?

    Therein lies my point -- Wilson is struggling quite a bit too and they are working with him. They cut Graves for attitude reasons as much as performance. The problem is that it's not like Jimenez where he's been around just a few seasons. Graves was what, the 2nd longest tenured Red? The message this sends is very much 2 sides. It says, "we won't put up with disrespect of our fans", but it also says "watch your step, fall in line."

    We need to have everybody on the same page certainly, but we don't have to a contemptuous relationship between players and managment. Nothing good can come of that.

    Some speculation, perhaps Graves wasn't willing to work to figure out what was going on with his stuff? Jimenez was cut for his poor performace yes, but also beecause of his laze faire attitude towards self-improvement and general surliness. I have to imagine one these was also in play with the Graves decision.

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    Fallout...

    From the report on ESPN.com:

    Stunned teammates sat in folding chairs in the clubhouse after learning of the move, which leaves the team without a proven closer. Several players said Graves should have been given a chance to work out his problems.

    "This is not his fault," first baseman Sean Casey said. "We stink. For us to be 15-28 has nothing to do with Danny Graves. That's the frustrating part for me.

    "I know I'm a little emotional right now, but I think the Cincinnati Reds as an organization owe a lot more to Danny Graves for the eight years he stepped up every year. They owe him more than to just release him like this. I just disagree with it."

    Outfielder Ken Griffey Jr. said he's never seen anything quite like the move.

    "It's tough," Griffey said. "He's not a troublemaker. He's not a guy that complained. He wants the ball. It's just upsetting. It's a tough way to lose a guy that's been here and dedicated himself to the organization."

    Graves criticized Reds fans for booing after the bullpen blew a six-run lead in the ninth inning against St. Louis on May 2, resulting in more boos and catcalls every time he appeared in a game the rest of the month.

    "It became a confidence factor," manager Dave Miley said. "His confidence has been shaken in the month of May, and we weren't comfortable bringing him in certain situations. We weren't seeing what we were accustomed to seeing."

    The rest of the bullpen has gone 0-for-3 in save situations this season. Miley isn't sure who will get the job.

    "Without pinpointing one guy, we'll look at the matchups and different things like that," Miley said. "Hopefully somebody will run with it."

    Casey said the move would hurt the team.

    "No doubt about it," Casey said. "This is just like getting hit in the head with a shovel, basically. Guys love Danny Graves. I don't know how it doesn't affect you a little bit negatively."

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    Re: Fallout...

    I don't think anyone will be surprised to read this, we all knew Graves was popular in the clubhouse. I think if I were in these players situation I would be saying similar things, he was a teammate to several players for a long time and it would their first reaction to defend him for his track record with the Reds.

    That being said, I think it still needed to be done to improve the team.

    I'll admit I'm a huge Sean Casey fan but for him to say it wasn't Danny Graves fault at all is pure lunacy. A player that has blown several saves, has an ERA over 7 and has created the chaos he has obviously had something to do with the poor start. Not all his fault, but there is definately some blame for him to share.

  9. #8
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: Fallout...

    Quote Originally Posted by Retneprac

    "No doubt about it," Casey said. "This is just like getting hit in the head with a shovel, basically. Guys love Danny Graves. I don't know how it doesn't affect you a little bit negatively."
    Well good, somebody needs to hit you (Casey) in the head with a shovel. Maybe then you won't ground out to 2B everytime you're up.

    I think it's time to trade our frat house president for a bag of peanuts and a case of Double K cola.
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  10. #9
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Fallout...

    Graves certainly is at fault for the games he's blown. But that doesn't necessarily justify cutting him. Miley said they weren't comfortable bringing him in to certain situations. Are they going to be move comforatble bring Keisler in? Move Graves to mop-up if you have to, but cutting him seems quite premature.

  11. #10
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    Re: Fallout...

    I can see how fellow teammates may be upset but there has to be a limit for how much any orginization can handle. Regardless if the player has a legacy with a team or is close to other teammates. They and other players can't expect to get by with a 7.30 ERA carying over from after the All Star Break last year and through this year. That is unacceptable for any reliever much less a closer.

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    Re: Fallout...

    I have been saying that the chemistry has been in need of a shake-up for some time, maybe this move is just that shake-up it needed maybe its not. From a baseball stand up I dont think that it makes much sense surely we could have dealt Graves for something. This move is another example of the ineptitude of our front office in my opinion.

  13. #12
    You're soaking in it! MartyFan's Avatar
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    Re: Fallout...

    This could get ugly...but I don't know if that will be any more ugly than the play on the field...this team is not the 28 Yankees and to think that ANY OF THEM would be anything close to untouchable or above being released is confusing to me.

    I think Junior and Casey will be out the door first...hopefully we will be getting someting in return.

    I liked OB when he was hired...loved his slow approach in contrast to Bowdens fly from the seat of your pants style...but I am a bit skeptical at this time...he needs to come up with something that works and hopefully will WOW us in a posative way.
    "Sometimes, it's not the sexiest moves that put you over the top," Krivsky said. "It's a series of transactions that help you get there."

  14. #13
    Reds fan for life!!!! WVPacman's Avatar
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    Re: Fallout...

    I don't know about you but I will miss all the blown saves by Graves and all the BOOOOOOOOOOO's that rained down on him everytime he came in.


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  15. #14
    Member schroomytunes's Avatar
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    Re: Fallout...

    It serves as a wakup call, sure its not popular but it needed to be done. Forget about his salary,history of year's past. The point is he's not a ML caliber pitcher anymore, and he's hurting the team and the fans by being put in the game. This is a win win situation for both parties involved, and maybe it wakes up the frat boys into playing like they should

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    Re: Fallout...

    Letting Tony Perez go after 44 games was a negative for this org.

    Letting DG go is, hopefully, the start of rebuilding this org.


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