Fire on Fire

[SteelSD]

very good post, but I am not sure that the "fire" is the problem. The pitching is the problem. I am not trying to be negative towards your post, but I don't think that it is the problem. The talent on the field is not up to what we have seen in the past from this organization. You are a good writer and I look forward to seeing more of your posts.

I echo that sentiment, Jpup. Obviously, Pressbox wrote a very heartfelt piece adn wrote it well. But, after reading it, I'm still not sure what he's looking for from the Reds.

Me? I think it's competence. Because, when a team has a competent GM, more competent players, and a competent Manager, they can get away with things like throwing bases and complaining about balls and strikes and etc. etc. Because when you're winning those moments happen late in games when you're ahead or behind 2-1 and everything's magnified- emotion, pressure, importance...everything.

But when you have a losing record and are behind by five Runs early-on in games on a consistent bases, that kind of behavior is colorful at best and, at worst, it's perceived as just plain whining. Losers don't get to fly off the handle when the chips are down. Certainly, anyone needs to stand up for themselves when challenged. But you don't get to pick your battles when your GM, Manager, and pitching staff is losing the war.

When we remember "fire", we see emblazoned trails left behind by excellent teams on their quest to greatness. But fire was not the engine of a team like the Big Red Machine. That engine was competence. Fire was the residual.

[PressBox]

I am thankful for so many kind words. I never expected such a response. I didn't even know what the rep system was about until today when I tried to post this on ORG and could not do so. So you see, I've learned something from this ordeal! I initially wrote the essay for myself, with no thoughts of publication anywhere - even on Redszone - and I certainly had no intent of sending it to anyone in the organization, but indeed I am flattered by any suggestion that I should do so. In fact, I'm flattered enough that I went back and edited the piece a little more after hearing from some of you.

Although the idea of sending this to John Allen or anyone else is a tempting one, I'm not sure what purpose or effect it would have, if any. I certainly wouldn't want to do anything that could be perceived as blatant ill will towards the team. Sending a letter that essentially does nothing but vent wouldn't be very productive or helpful. It all comes down to this: I would do anything within my limited means to help the organization turn things around. I really would.

[Chip R]

I echo that sentiment, Jpup. Obviously, Pressbox wrote a very heartfelt piece adn wrote it well. But, after reading it, I'm still not sure what he's looking for from the Reds.

Me? I think it's competence. Because, when a team has a competent GM, more competent players, and a competent Manager, they can get away with things like throwing bases and complaining about balls and strikes and etc. etc. Because when you're winning those moments happen late in games when you're ahead or behind 2-1 and everything's magnified- emotion, pressure, importance...everything.

But when you have a losing record and are behind by five Runs early-on in games on a consistent bases, that kind of behavior is colorful at best and, at worst, it's perceived as just plain whining. Losers don't get to fly off the handle when the chips are down. Certainly, anyone needs to stand up for themselves when challenged. But you don't get to pick your battles when your GM, Manager, and pitching staff is losing the war.

When we remember "fire", we see emblazoned trails left behind by excellent teams on their quest to greatness. But fire was not the engine of a team like the Big Red Machine. That engine was competence. Fire was the residual.

I would have to agree with Steel and Jpup. It was an excellent passionate post but even with that fire he's looking for, this would be a lousy team because the pitching is lousy. Repeat after me: The pitching is lousy. Keep repeating that even when you read John Fay and Hal McCoy and listen to Marty and the other talk show hosts complain about how bad this offense is.

Does this team have fire? They certainly seemed to have it on Opening Day when they came back from a deficit to win it in the bottom of the 9th inning. They certainly seemed to have a lot of fire when they were leading the division in June of last season. And what about all those come from behind victories back in 2003. I'd say that's mighty firey.

I understand where you are coming from though. It's natural to place the blame on such intangible things such as lack of fire, hustle, desire, etc. Or the lack of clubhouse camaradirie or the lack of a captain. We want to believe that the tangible things that we can measure aren't the problem because these guys can't possibly be that bad. It'd be nice to get guys like LaRue and Freel and Casey cloned and plugged into the positions but would it make the team any better? When you get down by 3, 4, 7 runs in the first 3-4 innings it would tend to sap the spirit of the most fiery competitor. Look at Lou Piniella. They don't make anyone more firey than him but his team is worse than ours if you can believe it.

Look in the box score every day and you are going to see why this team is losing. If they could get some decent pitching, that elusive fire may be back.

[Gainesville Red]

Excellent post. It will earn the first rep points I've ever given out as soon as I figure out how to give them.

[KronoRed]

Excellent post. It will earn the first rep points I've ever given out as soon as I figure out how to give them.

Hey G'ville welcome up

[Gainesville Red]

been here for a while, just haven't been around for a while. Broken computer. No money.

[Topcat]

This was a passionate and heartfelt post. Pressbox you touched my soul you felt the ache i have experienced for years. I commend you and plead that you send it to some one within reds orginization. 1 voice often speaks for many peoples setiments and your thoughts truly do. My dreams of being johnny Bench are long past, but i remember even at age 40 where i was when the reds won versus the redsox, Yankees, and Oakland A's, the glimpses in time that have been imprinted on my soul and my love for the redlegs.

[919191]

I would have to agree with Steel and Jpup. It was an excellent passionate post but even with that fire he's looking for, this would be a lousy team because the pitching is lousy. Repeat after me: The pitching is lousy. Keep repeating that even when you read John Fay and Hal McCoy and listen to Marty and the other talk show hosts complain about how bad this offense is.

Yeah, Chip, that is right, but I see what he means. I find it hard to get emotionally tied to this group of guys. I like them, think they are talented (well, some of them), and have the ability to win, but I am struggling with the passion. I just don't see this team doing anything I will remember 10 years down the road, like I do from past teams- even some bad ones.

[Ron Madden]

very good post, but I am not sure that the "fire" is the problem. The pitching is the problem. I am not trying to be negative towards your post, but I don't think that it is the problem. The talent on the field is not up to what we have seen in the past from this organization. You are a good writer and I look forward to seeing more of your posts.

Great post by Pressbox.


However I agree with Jpup, PITCHING is a Huge problem here we can talk night and day of Fire and the Will To Win.( IMHO it's whisleling past the grave yard)

It's safe to say every member of the roster and every member of this board
all have a burning desire to win. Fire and desire can go a long way... I'd rather ride on TALENT.

[OldRightHander]

very good post, but I am not sure that the "fire" is the problem. The pitching is the problem. I am not trying to be negative towards your post, but I don't think that it is the problem. The talent on the field is not up to what we have seen in the past from this organization. You are a good writer and I look forward to seeing more of your posts.

Yes, the pitching is the problem, but the "fire" has something to do with that. This organization used to give a darn about winning and losing and losing was so abhorrent that more would be done to ensure we had a winning team. What we see now is complete apathy. It's not just that they're losing, but that it doesn't seem to really bother anybody except those of us around here. I would love to see a front office again that hated to lose so much that they would do anything (within reasonable limits of course) to get the right players on this team, a front office that wouldn't try to excuse losing and blame it on a rebuilding period that has been taking way too long. Just how long does it take to rebuild? The Marlins won a championship, went down the tubes, and then rebuilt and won another one in a period of just six years. We've been in the so called "rebuilding" process for the last six years or more and I have yet to see any results. I'm getting sick of the excuses and I'm getting sick of a front office that behaves as though what is happening is acceptable.

[westofyou]

It's hard to detect fire and the will to win from position players who are bombarded nightly on the defensive side and watch leads that they worked hard for the last inning be passed by like a hot knife through butter. I can almost forgive the position players who feel they have to be a combination of Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth to put a enough runs on the board to actually enjoy the post game meal.

If you're pondering the loss of fire in the front office, those days left with the owners who owned the team as a "sporting interest"

It's now suits and ties and spreadsheet projections.

Problem is the only part of the Reds organization using spreadsheets for projections is the accounting and marleting department.

[creek14]

Everyone is simply going through the motions from the FO to the fans. There is no fire anywhere, you'd be hard pressed to find a warm ember.

Case in point. While we, RedsZoners - hard core Reds fans, were sitting at the game on Saturday, we started to remark what a boring game it was. A game with a grand slam and another HR by Dunn. A game with a good pitching performance. And it was boring. The crowd was not into it and the players could have been replaced with robots and I don't think anyone would have noticed.

It’s depressing. Not the losing this season. But the trend this organization is taking. An environment of losing is not only condoned, it is embraced. Danny summed it up well in his spiel to Milton “come to Cincinnati, there’s no pressure to win.”

[RedsFan75]

When the Big Red Machine played there was a passion, that doesn't exist today. When they were down a few runs late in the game you never gave up, as no lead was safe. There was a 'will' to win that seemed to always shift the game in their direction. An extra step here, a few more fouled off pitches just to get one more swing, one more chance to make the difference.

The WS champs of 90 had the same drive, the underdog looking up at the belly of the world, even with everyone saying they couldn't do it, they had the resolve, the drive to say... 'Wanna bet'... You could almost hear Joe Oliver saying 'Don't tell me what we can't do' as he stroked that shot down the 3rd base line.

Do we feel that todays team, from the front office on down, has any drive or tenacity, any fight? Maybe LaRue, maybe Freel... maybe.... no that's about all I can come up with. Who would be the Jose Guillien, being restrained from going out to protect his manager. Which pitcher will step up and pop someone after his team's been hit several times. Who's going to dust someone off because he showed him up on a HR..... It's sad to say no one...

Is it an indictment of our coddled players? or the manager, or coaches, how about all of the above. I'm still waiting to see Miley go off on someone. How 'bout a bench clearer... 'fraid not this year.

I agree with WOY that the ownership has lost it's fire because it's a 'business'. Gotta make those sheets balance. But because the owners group runs a business, doesn't mean the coaches and players can't play with some passion.

How many of us would LOVE to do what they do. How many of us in that position wouldn't play our hearts out to participate every day in the game we love. If you get a whole team playing with abandon, and passion what a difference that can make. It's time the players forget their stats and agents and focus on winning the game for the team.

[OldRightHander]

That is right on there. The mood is starting to resemble what was going on with the Bengals all those terrible years. It was like you went into a game expecting a loss, so if they won you were happy but if they lost it didn't really bother you that much. That is a drastic lowering of expectations and I find it somewhat disconcerting.

[RFS62]

There's a saying in tennis. "Confidence comes with the knowledge that you've got sound strokes".

The Reds know, like all of us know, that the pitching stinks to high Heaven.

They know it. They don't talk about it in public, but they know it.

No matter what they say to the press, the every day players know they'll probably have to score 7 or 8 runs in any game to just be competitive.

The past two years, we outperformed our Pythagorean for about half the season, and we witnessed some very exciting baseball. Nobody EVER questioned the heart or fire of those teams when the breaks were falling our way. Remember all those late inning comebacks?

But the pitching finally revealed itself and no amount of hustle or desire could overcome the putrid hurlers we kept runing out there. In fact, most of the hurling was done by fans after the dizzying array of gopher ball whiplash we'd been subjected to.

Baseball is a precision sport. You can't get all fired up and go out there and kill someone, like lower levels of football. You have to keep your composure to perform.

The front office has, inadvertantly, sucked a lot of life out of the players this year. I say inadvertantly because I don't think they do much of anything the way they intended to. DanO is in far over his head. Miley simply isn't a major league manager. They're probably nice guys, they're just not very good at making the critical judgments that their jobs call for.

We've gone from what was described as a happy and loose clubhouse to a daily death watch among the players. The mood is grim at best, and in stark contrast to the happy-go-lucky grabass clique that Danny Graves described in his famous statement to Milton.

It's all about talent on this level. 162 games will expose all your weakness' and strengths. Our pitching decided to show it's true colors in April this year, instead of June.

The players know, just as surely as we do.