I hate to say it, but it's time for Dunn to go.

[Cedric]

So just being hypothetical. Dunn throws away everything this organization had done for him in the past because he hates the new gm and new manager? I think he'll be fine when they leave, he has loyalties to some things here. Or he better.

[kyred14]

Did I miss something? Did someone throw a ticker tape parade for Lopez and Romano?

june 3, 2005: romano starts over dunn in coors. not exactly smart managing

and with luis lopez, under no circumstanes should his name be written on the first nine of a lineup card.

[kyred14]

So just being hypothetical. Dunn throws away everything this organization had done for him in the past because he hates the new gm and new manager? I think he'll be fine when they leave, he has loyalties to some things here. Or he better.

that should be step one of a process. in fact, firing those two should be the something the organization takes care of very soon. (if it doesn't go down monday, it may never. )

[Smallball]

geez, just b/c he doesn't care about the strikeout record, that doesn't mean he doesn't care about his performance. he probably realizes that a strikeout is just the same as any other out.

No one ever said (in this thread) that Dunn doesn't care about his performance. We were talking specifically about the strikeouts. And a strikeout is not like any other out. Teams that win are those that take advantage of the very few mistakes their opponents make in each game. By putting the ball into play, you provide mistake opportunities for the other team. A strikeout is an automatic out. A ball put into play is never an automatic out (Dunn's outfield play is a good example of that). Additionally, there's no such a thing as a sacrifice strikeout, but fly outs and ground outs advance baserunners and drive in runs every day.

[Smallball]

june 3, 2005: romano starts over dunn in coors. not exactly smart managing

and with luis lopez, under no circumstanes should his name be written on the first nine of a lineup card.

These may be valid points. But still, where are the accolades you mentioned? Most of what I've read and heard about the use of Romano and Lopez has been critical. Like I said, did someone throw these guys a party while I wasn't looking?

[forfreelin04]

Smallball,

Thanks for backing me up even though I was a little outlandish in my post. This year have been nothing but frustration ever since the first series of the year. It just bothers me that people cannot recognize the obvious. The obvious is actually watching the game instead of keeping track of the game on a computer with statistics. I mean "stat gentlemen" do not even need to watch the game anymore. They have all the stats right there. In the midst of this, they lose track of what's more important. The player's drive to win. I'm not saying Adam Dunn doesn't want to win. But I am saying he is the wrong person to have in this clubhouse. He cannot help a BAD ballclub. His attitude REEKS of apathy. That is his personality. Just now as he started to chipe up about not getting playing time against left handed SP. (See Hal's article in the paper today to see.) But he doesn't say anything in Colorado because "I sucked then." Does that sound like the words of a man hell bent on putting this team on his back? He could put this team on his back. He has enough talent and everyone has a voice to motivate and push. Heck, do those words even sound like the words of a "man." IMO He sounds like a spoiled child who would rather be fishing in some pond with a mouthful of chaw and a blue tick hound than playing baseball in Cincinnati. Maybe SI could do an article on that? Oh wait, they already did.

[Strikes Out Looking]

I'm not a big Adam Dunn Fan, however, I am also leery of the FO just packing him (or any of the other Reds consistently named in trade rumors) because I'm not sure the FO has any type of plan.

This seasons plan was that Ortiz and Milton would shore up the SP, Weber, Mercker and Weathers would shore up the RP and the offense would then be able to keep the Reds in games, thus making them contenders. So far, none of this has happened. The veteran SP's stink (however, I find it hard to blame Paul Wilson after finding out what he was trying to do with a damaged arm), the RP has been inconsistent to say the least, and the offense scores a ton of runs on some days, on some days it looks like the Rookie league team v. MLB allstars.

Thus, I believe the question is, not only what can the FO get for Dunn (or anyone else), but why are they doing it? How does it fit in the overall plan? Is the plan to have Freel and Lopez at the top of the order for a number of years? Is the plan to keep 3 of the 4 outfielders and hope 2 of them (Kearns, Dunn or Pena) become consistent hitting and defensive OF's (thus far, they all seem to have taken a step backward this year--and those of you who love Dunn, have to accept the fact that even though he has a lot of homers, he has also not improved on his strikeouts nor his batting average, which do count for something). Is the plan to keep Casey until Votto comes around or make Dunn or Griffey the 1B? Is the plan to keep Griffey (I for one find him to be the most consistent player they have lately and has anyone noticed he hasn't made any controversial comments during all of this?)

What's the plan for the pitching? Will Coffey become closer at some point? Who are the SP going to be? What are they going to do with Milton? (Does anyone know if he is cut, do the Reds have to pay him for all the years of his contract, or is it voided if someone else picks him up for next year? I know in football they are voided, but I'm confused about how it works for MLB. If they are only on the hook for this year, I'd cut bait now. He is really terrible--OK, he'll probably pitch a gem tonight to make me look like an idiot).

Sorry about this long post. But I, like all of you, am very frustrated. I think the problem is deep and starts with the FO (and ownership). My conclusion is, it may be time to trade Dunn, but I'm concerned about those who are doing the trading.

[Strikes Out Looking]

By the way, I'd like to be able to quit being a Reds Fan. Since it has been in my blood since my early childhood and I still remember balling in tears after the Reds lost the '70 series (I was 6), it just isn't possible. I stuck with 'em during Marge, I stuck with 'em during the Rose scandal, I fear I'm with 'em win or as is the case most likely, lose.

[WVRedsFan]

Did I miss something? Did someone throw a ticker tape parade for Lopez and Romano?

Apparently. Those AAA guys barely get to Cincinnati before they've replaced one of the regulars in the lineup.

[ochre]

Teams that win are those that take advantage of the very few mistakes their opponents make in each game. By putting the ball into play, you provide mistake opportunities for the other team. A strikeout is an automatic out. A ball put into play is never an automatic out (Dunn's outfield play is a good example of that). Additionally, there's no such a thing as a sacrifice strikeout, but fly outs and ground outs advance baserunners and drive in runs every day.

2002 Yankees: 1171 SO (leads the AL; 3rd most in the Majors), 897 R (most in the majors), Lost to Anaheim in their ALDS

2004 Red Sox: 1189 SO (leads the AL; 3rd most in the Majors), 949 R (most in the majors), World Series champions.

Strikeouts are just another out for the offense. In fact the approach(es) that lead hitters to more strikeouts probably increase the peripheral statistics that allow for more runs to be scored overall.

[TeamBoone]

So just being hypothetical. Dunn throws away everything this organization had done for him in the past because he hates the new gm and new manager? I think he'll be fine when they leave, he has loyalties to some things here. Or he better.

I'm certain he has some loyalties. How can he not?

I think it could all be turned around (for alot of players) if they leave too, but when the heck is that going to happen? Probably not until it's too late for all of us.

[TeamBoone]

Per forfreelin04, "but he doesn't say anything in Colorado because "I sucked then."

Your reference is out of context by presenting it as a stand-alone comment... IIRC, the full quote was obviously Adam Dunn being sarcastic.

[deltachi8]

I agree with Redleader to a point, I may not stop being a Redsfan, but I'm going to start following the Florida/Las Vegas Marlins even more than I am right now.

I think I have reached rock bottom as a Reds fan right now. I am embarrassed by this team and dont even want to wear my Reds cap next week in Cleveland.

[Terry]

Done as a Reds fan? LOL ... the Reds have made far worse mistakes in my lifetime than trading Adam Dunn would be. And I've somehow managed to remain a fan for all of my 41 years. It'll take a lot more than trading Dunn to get me off the bandwagon at this point.

[RosieRed]

Smallball,

Thanks for backing me up even though I was a little outlandish in my post. This year have been nothing but frustration ever since the first series of the year. It just bothers me that people cannot recognize the obvious. The obvious is actually watching the game instead of keeping track of the game on a computer with statistics. I mean "stat gentlemen" do not even need to watch the game anymore. They have all the stats right there. In the midst of this, they lose track of what's more important. The player's drive to win. I'm not saying Adam Dunn doesn't want to win. But I am saying he is the wrong person to have in this clubhouse. He cannot help a BAD ballclub. His attitude REEKS of apathy. That is his personality. Just now as he started to chipe up about not getting playing time against left handed SP. (See Hal's article in the paper today to see.) But he doesn't say anything in Colorado because "I sucked then." Does that sound like the words of a man hell bent on putting this team on his back? He could put this team on his back. He has enough talent and everyone has a voice to motivate and push. Heck, do those words even sound like the words of a "man." IMO He sounds like a spoiled child who would rather be fishing in some pond with a mouthful of chaw and a blue tick hound than playing baseball in Cincinnati. Maybe SI could do an article on that? Oh wait, they already did.

Just curious ... how do you know what his personality is? Do you know him personally? Do you really think that whatever quotes of his make it into print actually represent his whole personality? Why should we expect him to be fine with this team, and happy-go-lucky about everything, when it's clear to us that something stinks?

As for his attitude reeking of apathy: If he truly were apathetic right now, he wouldn't care if he were in the lineup or not. But since he was complaining about being benched, that to me says he's not apathetic. He wants to be out there playing ... but Miley apparently has some other plan.

I don't see where he sounds like a spoiled child. If I were Adam Dunn and I was being benched so that Romano and Kelly could start, I'd be pretty mad too. Obviously Dunn is a better player than both of them; what sense does it make to put less than your best players on the field?

It's kind of hard to carry the team on your shoulders when your manager doesn't play you every day.