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Thread: Foster's comments

  1. #1
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Foster's comments

    I was reading some of the "Trade Dunn Now" thread, and just before my ears started bleeding, I thought I noticed someone say that George Foster had commented that (paraphrasing) Dunn's job isn't to take walks, his job is to drive in runs.

    If I got that wrong, I apologize, but there ain't no way I'm going back into that thread.

    This really ties into a thought that has been rattling around in my head for a while and I've been meaning to write about.

    Foster is right.

    Now, he's not right because walks are bad or any of the Dunn bashing crap I read here all the time.

    He's right within the context of the "system" that Miley is trying to use.

    Miley's lineup construction speaks volumes about his theories. He's looking for a contact hitter in the two spot, someone who can put the ball in play on the right side and move a runner up. He's looking for a big guy in the 5 or 6 spot to drive in runners.

    Within the "offense" he's trying to run, those are his criteria for lineup construction.

    And make no mistake, a lot of the baseball world subscribes to this style. It's an offensive philosophy, just like in football, a scheme.

    The problem is that his personnel is ill-suited to play this offense. By sheer luck and random chance, he has the components of a great Earl Weaver style attack, but he either can't or won't see it.

    It's an offensive philosophy, make no mistake about it. But it's about like running a T formation instead of a pro-set in the NFL.

    He's got one of the most devestating onbase machines in modern baseball history, and he's horribly miscast in his role.

    A good coach plays to the strengths of his personnel. A good coach isn't afraid of change.

    Miley is neither.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

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  3. #2
    Member smith288's Avatar
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    Re: Foster's comments

    You are right. Dunn is a mixed bag of OBP via the walk or via the HR. Putting him in a position that puts him on base doesnt mean much when those behind him cant drive him in.

    He should be 2 or 3 and let Casey do the driving in (if he learns to lay off the shoestring balls).

  4. #3
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Foster's comments

    Quote Originally Posted by smith288
    You are right. Dunn is a mixed bag of OBP via the walk or via the HR. Putting him in a position that puts him on base doesnt mean much when those behind him cant drive him in.

    He should be 2 or 3 and let Casey do the driving in (if he learns to lay off the shoestring balls).
    Dunn is 5th in the league in RS. Almost impossible for someone batting 5/6 in the lineup. Miley just has no clue how to actually use him.
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

  5. #4
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    Re: Foster's comments

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62
    I was reading some of the "Trade Dunn Now" thread, and just before my ears started bleeding, I thought I noticed someone say that George Foster had commented that (paraphrasing) Dunn's job isn't to take walks, his job is to drive in runs.

    If I got that wrong, I apologize, but there ain't no way I'm going back into that thread.

    This really ties into a thought that has been rattling around in my head for a while and I've been meaning to write about.

    Foster is right.

    Now, he's not right because walks are bad or any of the Dunn bashing crap I read here all the time.

    He's right within the context of the "system" that Miley is trying to use.

    Miley's lineup construction speaks volumes about his theories. He's looking for a contact hitter in the two spot, someone who can put the ball in play on the right side and move a runner up. He's looking for a big guy in the 5 or 6 spot to drive in runners.

    Within the "offense" he's trying to run, those are his criteria for lineup construction.

    And make no mistake, a lot of the baseball world subscribes to this style. It's an offensive philosophy, just like in football, a scheme.

    The problem is that his personnel is ill-suited to play this offense. By sheer luck and random chance, he has the components of a great Earl Weaver style attack, but he either can't or won't see it.

    It's an offensive philosophy, make no mistake about it. But it's about like running a T formation instead of a pro-set in the NFL.

    He's got one of the most devestating onbase machines in modern baseball history, and he's horribly miscast in his role.

    A good coach plays to the strengths of his personnel. A good coach isn't afraid of change.

    Miley is neither.
    Great post RFS, dead on.

  6. #5
    You're soaking in it! MartyFan's Avatar
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    Re: Foster's comments

    agreed!

    I heard Fosters comments the other night when he was on with Tracey Jones after the "game"....He was kind but pretty direct and noted that Casey/Randa are the most expendable ad potential trade pieces he sees on the team...He also was pretty critical or at the very least very open to questioning the current management and coaching staff...He was not derogatory but he said he was sad to see the fans of this organization suffer through the product that is on the field right now.
    "Sometimes, it's not the sexiest moves that put you over the top," Krivsky said. "It's a series of transactions that help you get there."

  7. #6
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Foster's comments

    Miley's lineup construction speaks volumes about his theories. He's looking for a contact hitter in the two spot, someone who can put the ball in play on the right side and move a runner up. He's looking for a big guy in the 5 or 6 spot to drive in runners.
    In other words, he's managing like it's 1983.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

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    Re: Foster's comments

    I echo sentiments of others about your post (good one). Morgan said the same thing last night on espn sunday night. He was talking about each player has a job to do in the batting order etc.. etc.....and we've been through all that..............

    However, one distinction, everyone wants to blame Miley and let Dunn off the hook all the time either because of hitting coaches, spot in batting order, noone behind him, noone in front of him, he's young etc... etc....

    Star players play the cards they are dealt. Dunn could have made himself a better candidate (even for an old school manager) for a #2 or #3 hole batting slot the past few years by working on bat control, raising avg. a little, cutting strikeouts etc. .etc....he has either chosen or has been unable to make any of those adjustments. Miley is not the only manager in baseball who would have trouble justifying to himself putting dunn in 2 or 3 hole. But for the record, I too have advocated giving Dunn a shot in #2 hole to see what would happen............

  9. #8
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Foster's comments

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool
    In other words, he's managing like it's 1983.

    Yes. Or 1993. Or 2003. A vast majority of the baseball world still goes by the proverbial "book".
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

  10. #9
    You're soaking in it! MartyFan's Avatar
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    Re: Foster's comments

    Put him in the #3 hole we have other guys who can bat behind him to protect him and then drive him in...move Casey down to the 6 spot and it may cut down on his double play problem.
    "Sometimes, it's not the sexiest moves that put you over the top," Krivsky said. "It's a series of transactions that help you get there."

  11. #10
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Foster's comments

    Dunn is fifth in Run scored, what does that tell you about Mileys lineups?

  12. #11
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    Re: Foster's comments

    It is a lot less complicated than the book makes it seem. Those that make the fewest outs on offense tend to score the most runs. The micro-events that the 'book' builds its rules around are not even valid for a significant portion of the macro of a game, let alone a season. A 2 hitter doesn't bat second every time up. Occasionally a 2 hitter bats last and unless that is a game winning plate event, that is what he needs to avoid (making an out).
    4009



  13. #12
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Foster's comments

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44
    Dunn is fifth in Run scored, what does that tell you about Mileys lineups?
    Nothing other than the fact he would be first if the lineup was constructed properly.
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

  14. #13
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Foster's comments

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricardo Cabesa
    Nothing other than the fact he would be first if the lineup was constructed properly.
    Exactly.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  15. #14
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Foster's comments

    Quote Originally Posted by ochre
    It is a lot less complicated than the book makes it seem. Those that make the fewest outs on offense tend to score the most runs. The micro-events that the 'book' builds its rules around are not even valid for a significant portion of the macro of a game, let alone a season. A 2 hitter doesn't bat second every time up. Occasionally a 2 hitter bats last and unless that is a game winning plate event, that is what he needs to avoid (making an out).

    No argument from me on any of that. But the book is so ingrained in the psyche of organized baseball that challenging it's basic principles is often seen as sacreligious.

    Look at the arguments that have gone on here for years.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

  16. #15
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Foster's comments

    However, one distinction, everyone wants to blame Miley and let Dunn off the hook all the time
    As RFS62 wrote, Miley is to blame for not being able to identify and optimize Dunn's skill set.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful


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