Turn Off Ads?
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 51

Thread: Behind the Reitsma Trade - Excerpt from "Scouts Honor"

  1. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Shelburne Falls, MA
    Posts
    10,258

    Re: Behind the Reitsma Trade - Excerpt from "Scouts Honor"

    The object is to be the fleecer not the fleecee.
    Not necessarily -- trades, in order to get made, have to be perceived as fair by both sides. If you're object is to fleece the other team, you hurt your chances of acquiring the talent you want, and you won't make many trades (because other GMs will quickily learn your fleecer's MO).
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #17
    You know his story Redsland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Posts
    7,714

    Re: Behind the Reitsma Trade - Excerpt from "Scouts Honor"

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD
    A rebuilding GM should try to get the best talent available, regardless of position. DanO insisted on two starting pitchers,
    Do you know why? He was worried about trading for a bust. He figured he'd double his chances of success it he got two prospects instead of one.

    It's an admission that he can't evaluate talent. Especially now that neither of them looks very good.
    Makes all the routine posts.

  4. #18
    Member NJReds's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    5,432

    Re: Behind the Reitsma Trade - Excerpt from "Scouts Honor"

    In fairness to DanO, he picked up Todd Jones off the scrap heap to take Reitsma's role in the Reds bullpen. Jones outperformed Reitsma last year.

  5. #19
    Puffy 3:16 Puffy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Panama City Beach
    Posts
    13,773

    Re: Behind the Reitsma Trade - Excerpt from "Scouts Honor"

    Quote Originally Posted by NJReds
    In fairness to DanO, he picked up Todd Jones off the scrap heap to take Reitsma's role in the Reds bullpen. Jones outperformed Reitsma last year.
    Coulda had both of them (Jones signed for less than 1 million, I believe). Would have made for a solid bullpen, eh?

    Just sayin'
    "I came here to kick ass and chew bubble gum... and I'm all out of bubble gum."
    - - Rowdy Roddy Piper

    "It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong. I am not a big man"
    - - Fletch

  6. #20
    Member NJReds's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    5,432

    Re: Behind the Reitsma Trade - Excerpt from "Scouts Honor"

    Quote Originally Posted by Puffy
    Coulda had both of them (Jones signed for less than 1 million, I believe). Would have made for a solid bullpen, eh?

    Just sayin'
    You're right. Could've had them both.

    I don't think DOB would have done one without the other. And based on his track record I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt.

  7. #21
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Right Down Broadway
    Posts
    18,712

    Re: Behind the Reitsma Trade - Excerpt from "Scouts Honor"

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsland
    Do you know why? He was worried about trading for a bust. He figured he'd double his chances of success it he got two prospects instead of one.

    It's an admission that he can't evaluate talent. Especially now that neither of them looks very good.
    I think he asked for two because he thought that was a fair price for a major league arm. However, is that such a flawed strategy, knowing the failure rate for pitchers, esp. starting pitchers? If you ask for two possible starters and one pans out but the other one turns out to be nothing more than a reliever, you're on your way to a pitching staff with a couple of those types of deals.
    Can't win with 'em

    Can't win without 'em

  8. #22
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    1,579

    Re: Behind the Reitsma Trade - Excerpt from "Scouts Honor"

    thanks for nothing BUBBA

  9. #23
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Northern Ky
    Posts
    440

    Re: Behind the Reitsma Trade - Excerpt from "Scouts Honor"

    Quote Originally Posted by KearnsyEars
    thanks for nothing BUBBA
    What are you talking about, Bubba is still young and hasn't been bad playing the role of closer in AA this year.

    Name W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB SO
    Bubba Nelson 2 1 4.03 27 0 0 0 10 38.0 39 20 17 4 12 45

  10. #24
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    21,318

    Re: Behind the Reitsma Trade - Excerpt from "Scouts Honor"

    Quote Originally Posted by NJReds
    In fairness to DanO, he picked up Todd Jones off the scrap heap to take Reitsma's role in the Reds bullpen. Jones outperformed Reitsma last year.
    And Todd Jones was only here for half a season before getting traded.. We still have a long term need for help in the bullpen. Jones was just a 1/2 season bandaid that was flipped for a marginal player (was it the mighty Machado?)

    The Rietsma trade was supposed to help us longterm, but it looks like it hurt us both longterm and shortterm.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  11. #25
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Cincinnati Ohio
    Posts
    956

    Re: Behind the Reitsma Trade - Excerpt from "Scouts Honor"

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Sanchez
    What are you talking about, Bubba is still young and hasn't been bad playing the role of closer in AA this year.

    Name W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB SO
    Bubba Nelson 2 1 4.03 27 0 0 0 10 38.0 39 20 17 4 12 45

    This trade is by no means done for. Nelson is still 22 or 23. He could still be something. BOng i have a feeling may be a decent situational lefty.

    Im not saying this is ever going to be a great trade but it could be good for the future.

  12. #26
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    167

    Re: Behind the Reitsma Trade - Excerpt from "Scouts Honor"

    Scouts Honor is a great book. You guys really need to read it. This book is very well written.

  13. #27
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    28,448

    Re: Behind the Reitsma Trade - Excerpt from "Scouts Honor"

    Quote Originally Posted by The_jbh
    bubba nelson was the exact type of prospect we were looking for. He was a high ceiling arm from a 1st class organization. I definately didnt want to see Reitsma gone and was never a fan of Bong, but nelson was something we needed. He just flamed. Obviously now it looks like a bad deal but at the time, it wasn't too bad.
    Initially that was my take too. Bubba had himself a pedigree. Yet there were some others on this board, princeton leaps immediately to mind, who cautioned that Bubba wasn't the power arm he was billed as. If you look at his minor league numbers, his K rates were dropping everytime he climbed the ladder and had gotten to the middle-of-the-road point when the Braves dealt him.

    I don't know if his stuff isn't as crisp as it was when he was younger (that can happen) or if it never was the kind of stuff that was going to cause higher-level hitters to swing and miss all that often. All I know is he hasn't lived up to the billing. I didn't sniff it out, but others did. Ultimately GMs are paid to be right.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  14. #28
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Posts
    12,324

    Re: Behind the Reitsma Trade - Excerpt from "Scouts Honor"

    The Braves organization is a perfect example of what good branding can do for a baseball team. The Braves have always been synonymous with pitching, so everyone automatically thinks their minor league pitching must be good. BUt quite honestly, the Braves haven't developed and benefitted much at all from pitching and developing pitchers. Pretty much all of their good starters since Galvine have been either trades of FA signings. They aren't so good at drafting and developing pitchers.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  15. #29
    BelisleFan
    Guest

    Re: Behind the Reitsma Trade - Excerpt from "Scouts Honor"

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM
    The Braves organization is a perfect example of what good branding can do for a baseball team. The Braves have always been synonymous with pitching, so everyone automatically thinks their minor league pitching must be good. BUt quite honestly, the Braves haven't developed and benefitted much at all from pitching and developing pitchers. Pretty much all of their good starters since Galvine have been either trades of FA signings. They aren't so good at drafting and developing pitchers.
    Well first off you are forgetting that to benefit from your minor league pitching, it also involves using your minor league pitching to help your major league club through trades.

    So, in other words, when the Braves dealt Bubba Nelson and Jung Bong to Cincinnati for Chris Reitsma, they definitely benefitted from the minor league pitching. Every team in baseball needs pitching, and the Braves have been perfect at developing young arms that other teams want. This allows them to fill other holes.

    Remember, the Braves had 60%-80% of their rotation locked up for many years (Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, and even Millwood), so there wasn't a big need to have young pitchers come up and make the big league team. That allowed them to use their minor leauge pitchers and young pitchers in trades to help other areas of their club.

    It is just as important to use your minor league system to have players available in trades than it is to get players directly to the big league club.

    So what have the Braves used in trades to improve their big league club?

    Jason Schmidt - Used in the Denny Neagle deal in 1997
    Rob Bell - Used in the Bret Boone deal in 1998
    Bowie, Quevedo, and Nation - Used in the Mulholland deal in 1999
    Bruce Chen - Used in the Andy Ashby deal in 2000
    Odalis Perez - Used in the Gary Sheffield deal in 2002
    Tim Spooneybarger - Used in the Mike Hampton deal in 2002
    Damian Moss - Used in the Russ Ortiz deal in 2002
    Merkin Valdez - Used in the Russ Ortiz deal in 2002
    Matt Belisle - Used in the Kent Mercker deal in 2003
    Jason Marquis - Used in the J.D. Drew deal in 2003
    Adam Wainwright - Used in the J.D. Drew deal in 2003
    Bubba Nelson - Used in the Chris Reitsma deal in 2004
    Jung Bong - Used in the Chris Reitsma deal in 2004
    Matt Merricks - Used in the Tom Martin deal in 2004
    Jose Capellan - Used in the Dan Kolb deal in 2004
    Alec Zumwalt - Used in the Dan Kolb deal in 2004
    Dan Meyer - Used in the Tim Hudson deal in 2004

    All of these pitchers were developed in the Atlanta Braves farm system. So how can you say the Braves are not good at drafting and developing pitchers? Just because the Braves use them in trades does not mean the organization did not scout and develop them. I think this list shows they are excellent at scouting and developing pitching talent.

    Right now, the Braves have 8 of their 13 pitchers on their staff that spent time in their minor league system. That's a pretty good ratio as well.

    I think the main problem I have with your contention is that you do not believe players that are used in trades are developed by the organization. Give the Braves credit for having the talent on hand to make trades when they need help in other areas. Those pitchers were scouted and developed by the Braves, and therefore did help their organization improve by being placed in trades.

  16. #30
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    1,111

    Re: Behind the Reitsma Trade - Excerpt from "Scouts Honor"

    People who critisize Bong and Nelson need to remember that Nelson is 23, soon to be 24 and Bong is 24, soon to be 25. They are still young. When healthy, they have displayed ample velocity: they have both been documented hitting mid-90s and pitching comfortably in the low 90s.

    They have good arms with major league potential (actually Bong has already pitched in the majors for 3 years - including post-season work - so labelling him a failure is ignoring his significant accomplishments).
    Patience and instruction must be provided to them, as they have displayed enough talent to merit the investment.
    Most importantly, they need to stay healthy.
    With good health and a patient approach to development, these two pitchers will pitch in the majors. I hope it is for the Reds.


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25