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[GAC]

So... predestination: if I'm going to hell, it's because God wants me to go to hell (or by deciding not to bestow Grace upon me, is sentencing me to hell), and I can't do anything to change that?

Is that what Scripture says? I'm all confused now. And admittedly, I'm not very (not at all would be more truthful, actually) familiar with Scripture.

I just want to know if Scripture states that some people are going to Hell and there's nothing they can do about it, they are destined to eternal torment and damnation.

There are various teachings on predestination and election zombie. Calvinism and Wesley-Arminianism are the two prevelant ones.

I am a follower of the latter. Other then this particular area (election and predestination), I'd say that traderumor and I agree on 99% of everything else.

I believe the plan of redemption and was predetermined by God. The people were also predetermined, meaning those who accept Christ.

But the invitation is open to all, and there are too many scriptures IMO, that would back that up. But the most prevalent one is....

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." (John 3:16,17)

Even though I've been to Redszone gatherings with you - you are STILL a "whosoever".

[zombie-a-go-go]

I believe the plan of redemption and was predetermined by God. The people were also predetermined, meaning those who accept Christ.

But the invitation is open to all, and there are too many scriptures IMO, that would back that up. But the most prevalent one is....

So what you're saying is (in your interpretation), that God decided some people will be saved, but for the rest of them it's all up in the air? Some select were destined to follow God's path, the rest are given the choice as to whether they want to damn themselves via the choices they make? That it wouldn't be a pointless exercise for me to throw away my porno and volunteer some time down at the rec center because, although I was not chosen, I can still redeem myself through my actions?

I had always heard that anyone can accept Christ and be saved, see. That's why this whole predestination thing seems so... ridiculous to me, because I've never heard it that way.

If everything is predestined, why would the Christian man or woman who has Grace even bother to talk about it? They would know that no matter how many debates or discussions they have with the damned, it's not going to change anything, that they can not make a difference? Frankly, I wouldn't waste my time with all them sinners when there are other, productive works I could be doing to benefit myself, God, and those who also have Grace. I would even go so far as to consider it cruel on the part of the man with Grace, were he to go amongst the masses and preach the word of God, telling the damned about the blessings and promise of Heaven that they can never attain. Kinda like rubbing their noses in the crap.

I would have a difficult time considering that a "loving" God. More like "I love you, you, and you way over there in the corner... the rest of ya, tough luck, say hi to Lucifer to me."

Wow. That would suck.

[Rychian]

Zombie,
Which is exactly why the reformed church (predestination) is in general (BLANKET STATEMENT HERE) terrible at missions. They view that since these people in africa are predestined to go to hell, heaven whatever, then why should we even bother with telling them abotu christ.
I know, i know, someones reformed church has probabl 17000 missionaries and yadda yadda, but in general the reformed church doesnt bother with missions. This is why you are seeing fewer and fewer reformed churches and their influence in the world.

[registerthis]

Welcome to the board, James. I posted the verses you referenced for everyone. I don't know where you got the impression that I believed Christ's atoning sacrifice was not sufficient for all, but it is only efficient for the elect. Yes, Christ died for all, but the atonement is limited to actually covering the sins of those who will believe, which are the elect of God.

Which is just another way of saying it. It's akin to "Sure, this exclusive private school is open to anyone, but you have to have been born into a wealthy family to attend it. Sorry." This is saying nothing more than that God is arbitrarily selecting those who will be saved, and those he will condemn.

Why doesn't that make God bad? Because he isn't obligated to save any of us. One sin and we're all condemned. I have no idea why He chose me, there are much more moral folks than myself that would be more worthy if it was based on individual merit. I guess that's why they call it grace!

It doesn't make God bad, it makes him a hypocrite. On one hand he sends his son to save ALL of mankind (supposedly), and that all who believe in him will be saved. God also granted us free will--the ability to choose the wrong or right choice. I can steal the candy bar, or I can not steal it. I can commit murder, or I can choose NOT to commit murder. Those two views are completely incompatible with a God who makes arbitrary decisions as to who will be saved and who will not.

And, like I said, it gives our life no meaning or purpose. You have yet to explain how this could not be so, so I guess I will anxiously await your response.

[traderumor]

Zombie,
Which is exactly why the reformed church (predestination) is in general (BLANKET STATEMENT HERE) terrible at missions. They view that since these people in africa are predestined to go to hell, heaven whatever, then why should we even bother with telling them abotu christ.
I know, i know, someones reformed church has probabl 17000 missionaries and yadda yadda, but in general the reformed church doesnt bother with missions. This is why you are seeing fewer and fewer reformed churches and their influence in the world.

Yes, that is a blanket statement and a terribly misinformed, prejudicial statement. What you are likely referring to is a small minority of misguided individuals known as hyper-Calvinists, who prescribe to un-Biblical conclusions regarding predestination. They are the exception but are made the rule by those who oppose Calvinism/Augistianism/Doctrines of Grace.

Calvinists are evangelists. I recently sought planting a Reformed church (eventually found an existing one close enough and hope to plant one in Newark someday) and dealt with an organization called Grace2NorthAmerica, who is currently planting a church that is attracting mostly seekers in Wales. Does George Whitfield ring a bell? Charles Spurgeon? John MacArthur, who has a megachurch established from the ground up (not sheep stealing) but is a Calvinist? I can go on and on. The church I go to, the pastor recently went on a missions trip to Mexico and is taking a group from the church back there in the summer to reach a people group that has not been exposed to the one true gospel but is steeped in Roman Catholicism (sorry RCs, but I am a Protestant ).

Zombie is asking the right questions, and GAC, your view is more Calvinistic/Augustinian than you think. As I stated earlier, God is not obligated to save one sinner, so to say he is unfair because he does not save all does not quite fit. It is only by his mercy and grace that he saves anyone, and there is no way to know beforehand whom he has chosen by His grace.

Those who receive the judgment do so by either hearing the gospel and rejecting it or by ignoring their inborn knowledge of God that can be seen all around them (see Romans 1). Not one person is unjustly sentenced to the judgment, each person has the opportunity.

Which is why the Calvinist evangelizes and is active in missions, realizing that he/she is not smart enough to know whom the elect of God are. That is why the Calvinist prays, because he/she wants to do the will of the Father, which he cannot do without communion with his heavenly Father. What the Calvinist will not do is try to come up with manipulative ways to get folks to walk an aisle or pray a prayer, or to get folks to come to their meetings. They trust the word of God enough to do the work, knowing that if they preach the gospel, both from the pulpit and to their neighbors, that some will be saved because God's word will not return void. They also let God be God and do not shake a fist at him because He exacts judgment at those who hate him. Just think, folks want God to save people that hate him, which is what everyone does before they accept Christ.

[Johnny Footstool]

But being tempted is not a sin.

True. But isn't sin committed in one's heart, rather than in the actions one takes?

I'm not saying that Adam and Eve sinned when the serpent tempted them. I'm saying they sinned the instant they decided, "I don't care what God says, I'm biting this apple." They made that decision *prior* to biting the apple -- prior to gaining knowledge of good and evil.

The admonition/warning should have been enough. There are plenty of instances when we do the same with our own children.

It should have been, but wasn't. And we can see the same kind of behavior in our own children.

I can think of many examples from my own life in which authority figures have warned me not to do something. I obeyed for a while, but then became audacious and decided to find out what I was missing. Only after experiencing the unpleasant consequences did I really understand why I was told not do it in the first place.

It makes sense to me that this is how God had to teach Adam and Eve.

[zombie-a-go-go]

Just think, folks want God to save people that hate him, which is what everyone does before they accept Christ.

But we can't decide to accept Christ. God decides whether or not we accept Christ. When it comes to our immortal soul, we are but pawns, and our final destination is chosen for us at the moment of our birth/conception?

How does the Church view people who are not the elect of God? Does it pity them?

[traderumor]

True. But isn't sin committed in one's heart, rather than in the actions one takes?

I'm not saying that Adam and Eve sinned when the serpent tempted them. I'm saying they sinned the instant they decided, "I don't care what God says, I'm biting this apple." They made that decision *prior* to biting the apple -- prior to gaining knowledge of good and evil.

That's some mighty fine hair splitting. If you want to use that line of reasoning, then the knowledge of good and evil came when they sinned, since the tree had no inherent power of its own. Their eyes were opened to the knowledge of good and evil due to the disobedience, what they did to disobey was inconsequential. But still, Eve did not sin until she ate of the fruit. God did not say "don't even think about taking a bite." Thinking about eating the fruit was not a sin. Making a decision to eat the fruit was not a sin. I have decided to do something that I knew was a sin before. However, I did not carry out the act, therefore I did not sin. Reaching out was not a sin, plucking it off the tree was not a sin (see Gen. 2:17). But when she took a bite, sin and death entered the world.

[Johnny Footstool]

I have decided to do something that I knew was a sin before. However, I did not carry out the act, therefore I did not sin.

Then you didn't decide *in your heart* to commit the sin. If you had, then you would have done it.

The basic argument is simply that sin comes from the heart, not from actions.

[traderumor]

But we can't decide to accept Christ. God decides whether or not we accept Christ. When it comes to our immortal soul, we are but pawns, and our final destination is chosen for us at the moment of our birth/conception?

How does the Church view people who are not the elect of God? Does it pity them?

No, each believer makes a conscious decision to accept Christ. Where the difference lies in that issue is the source of the power to make that decision. Was it something good in man that caused him to choose God when the offer was made or did God give man the ability apart from anything good in man. In other words, is salvation all of God or does man take part in his own salvation. If you believe as I do, both the faith and the grace necessary to accept Christ come from God as gifts. Others, like those opposing me in this thread, believe that it is their own faith that allows them to accept the grace, the free gift of salvation. I consider that to violate Ephesians 2:8-9, which describe salvation not of works, so that no man can brag about his salvation.

The church view the non-elect God as people needing to hear the gospel. Like I said in my previous post, no one knows who the elect are but God. There are some in churches who think they are elect and they are not, while some haven't darkened the door of a church for their entire lifetime (me for 27 + years) but suddenly find themselves seeking after God (which they find out in hindsight was the Holy Spirit leading them to the Word of God).

[traderumor]

Then you didn't decide *in your heart* to commit the sin. If you had, then you would have done it.

The basic argument is simply that sin comes from the heart, not from actions.

Ok, so if that sinful human heart is deceitful and desperately wicked as Jeremiah says it is, then how does that same heart seek and want God on its own? Do you think there is some sort of dualism going on, with the devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other telling us "do it" "don't do it" ?

[registerthis]

The church view the non-elect God as people needing to hear the gospel. Like I said in my previous post, no one knows who the elect are but God. There are some in churches who think they are elect and they are not, while some haven't darkened the door of a church for their entire lifetime (me for 27 + years) but suddenly find themselves seeking after God (which they find out in hindsight was the Holy Spirit leading them to the Word of God).

Why would the non-elect need to hear the Gospel? What is the point? They aren't elected by God, they're condemned regardless of what they do.

And how can someone consciously choose to follow God if they have already been selected by God to do so? It's not a conscious thought, it's something they would have done regardless.

And I am still waiting to hear what meaning my life has if all people on this Earth are either predestined for eternal salvation or predestined for condemnation. If it is meant to happen, it will happen regardless of what I say or do.

If I commit treacherous acts of sin against my fellow man that results in me going to hell, it's inconsequential because I obviously wasn't one of God's elect to begin with, so nothing I could have done could change that.

[RedsBaron]

Christ, referring to his own death by being lifted up on a cross, stated: "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." John 12:32 KJV
Peter wrote that the Lord "...is long suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9 KJV
Jesus spoke of how he wanted all of Jerusalem to be saved, but its people refused: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them who are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" Matthew 23:37 KJV
Isaiah proclaimed that salvation through God's grace was available to all: "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come to the waters, and he that hath no money; come buy and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price." Isaiah 55:1 KJV
Joshua spoke of the need for choosing, and the ability to chose:
"....choose you this day whom ye will serve...." Joshua 24:15 KJV

[TeamCasey]

Edit: attempted humor - wrong place, wrong time, wrong bat channel.

[traderumor]

Why would the non-elect need to hear the Gospel? What is the point? They aren't elected by God, they're condemned regardless of what they do.

One, the gospel has a double edge to it--it saves and slays. Accepting it, as the elect of God will, and it saves. Reject it, as the non-elect will, and it slays. The non-elect condemn themselves. They choose to sin. Funny how folks want free will when it comes to salvation, yet they want to say it is unfair when that free will leads to sin and condemns them. Now, its suddenly God's fault for condemning them.

And how can someone consciously choose to follow God if they have already been selected by God to do so? It's not a conscious thought, it's something they would have done regardless.

God works through man and by the indwelling Holy Spirit, gives men the power to do things they otherwise could not do. It is the same principle that leads me to claim that the Bible is inspired (comes from God) yet the men writing it, under the power of the Holy Spirit, were writing it in their own way. The words they wrote were exactly what God wanted to say, yet the writer's individual writing styles and personalities were kept in tact. Miraculous, just like the regeneration of a dead man to one that is spiritually alive.

And I am still waiting to hear what meaning my life has if all people on this Earth are either predestined for eternal salvation or predestined for condemnation. If it is meant to happen, it will happen regardless of what I say or do.

You are a created being. Your life has value simply by being born, something you had nothing to do with. God uses each and every life to work together for his own good, for his purposes, for His glory. Even a life that is used for evil deeds can be used to further God's kingdom on earth. But, despite the overly fatalistic point of view, your life will have meaning, regardless of whether you use it for evil or for good. However, read Ecclesiastes and you will see the answer to a question such as that.

If I commit treacherous acts of sin against my fellow man that results in me going to hell, it's inconsequential because I obviously wasn't one of God's elect to begin with, so nothing I could have done could change that.

Which acts would point to why you were condemned (hypothetically, of course). We are judged by our works. Believers works are forgiven based on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. In other words, Christ's finished work on the cross stands between me and God so my works are not judged. An unbeliever has no one to stand in for them as they are judged solely on their own works, which are sinful.