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[Johnny Footstool]

The holier than thou crowd are lost and need guidance and direction, too and Jesus reached out to them also.

Good point.

[traderumor]

No Prob,
Ive learned not to get offended a long time ago. Though my thoughts and ideas are sometimes offensive to church folk.
I havent read warrens purpose driven ___________ though many churches are jumping on the idea which is great. Also, just to have some fun, i dont preach a book of the bible at a time, and lectionaries are the worst thing to ever happen to a good preacher.

Just thought id throw it out there. The bible is preached, though more topically and less expository. I find that if people dont even know the words that you are using to describe the mode of preaching you use the less likely they will even know what your talking about on sundays.

Peace.
Tom.

I'm surprised you have not read Warren because your philosophy for planting a church seems to mirror his approach. My final word on the subject is this: church is for the gathering together of the saints for worship through the prayer, praise and proclamation of the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ so that they may go into all the world and make disciples of the nations. From what you've said so far, Tom, you are trying to create a place that makes church not suck. I'm not sure if it accomplishes the above in so doing since the unregenerate think church sucks because that is exactly what the unregenerate should think about church. You may be able to create a church that is more favorable to the lost, but then once they become believers, what do you do when that no longer satisfies their souls that now hunger for God?

[registerthis]

The holier than thou crowd are lost and need guidance and direction, too and Jesus reached out to them also. If the gospel is preached at a church, the "holier-than-thou crowd" is reached out to every week. Wasn't the rebuke Tom referenced in Matt 23 reaching out to them? Didn't he draw Nicodemus to himself? Levi/Matthew? Peter? Paul, the holierest of the holier than thou crowd?

Christ saves sinners--religious ones, pagan ones, and everything in between. The gospel isn't just for the "unchurched." The gospel is for Christians and professing but not possessing Christians too. The key is to preach the gospel, not look for target audiences.

But surely you can understand that one Church can't be all things to all people, TR.

For example, there are people that prefer a very liturgical, organized worship style. This suits them. I prefer something more relaxed. Some prefer an energetic, joyful celebration--as seen in many inner city churches. others prefer a more quiet, somber service.

Therefore I'm going to disagree with your "target audience" comment. I don't think Rychian is looking for a target audience, only looking for new ways to reach those who may not otherwise be reached. Do other churches "suck"? I can tell you firsthand that I have visited many churches that, were they all I had ever known about Christianity, would have done nothing to further my belief in God. There was nothing going on, or being preached, that would have made me feel that I could have--or *wanted*--to be a part of that congregation. You can preach the gospel, and STILL be an uninspiring congregation.

There are other churches that I find inspiring, for a number of reasons. I don't see Rychian as ignoring the gospel--in actuality, his stated purpose for the church comes directly from a gospel chapter--so much as finding new ways to deliver it.

And that, I believe, is admirable.

[traderumor]

But surely you can understand that one Church can't be all things to all people, TR.

Where does it say its supposed to be?

[Crash Davis]

What is your scriptural support for such a method, or do you see that as a necessity when it comes to evangelism?

My final word on the subject is this: church is for the gathering together of the saints for worship through the prayer, praise and proclamation of the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ so that they may go into all the world and make disciples of the nations.

Church cop?

[registerthis]

Where does it say its supposed to be?

It was in reference to your quote

The key is to preach the gospel, not look for target audiences.

Which I assumed, rather wrongly or rightly, was made in tandem with this quote

All of the things churches do to get folks to their meetings is all well and good, but then I would hope that once they get to your church they are hearing the gospel of God, which since you are familiar with bad churches, all say they preach the gospel (see I Cor 15:3-4), few actually do.

I didn't see anywhere where Rychian said he wasn't planning on preaching the gospel, only that his methodologies would be different. And there's nothing wrong with different methodologies.

[WVRed]

PS --> Im a pretty conservative guy, but i am willing to use a taboo word if it means people get to know christ.

Just out of curiosity, what is your stance on Christian rock/Contemporary Christian Music?

I think its great what you are doing and I wish you the best of luck. I almost went to an ultra-conservative Christian college in Pensacola, FL(Pensacola Christian College if you have heard of it), but I decided against it after being down there a couple of days. Long story short, it took conservatism to extremes.

Im currently contemplating Appalachia Bible College here in West Virginia. But I am definitely considering the ministry.

[registerthis]

Just out of curiosity, what is your stance on Christian rock/Contemporary Christian Music?

I know your question wasn't directed at me, but I feel like responding...

I think most of hit sucks hard...not because of the spirituality in the lyrics, but the music. it's godawful. people complain about Christian rock not getting played on top 40 stations, and it's little wonder...most of it is terrible.

Just my two cents anyhow.

[Redsfaithful]

[Redsfaithful]

Sorry, channeling woy there for a moment. Carry on.

[traderumor]

It was in reference to your quote

Which I assumed, rather wrongly or rightly, was made in tandem with this quote

I didn't see anywhere where Rychian said he wasn't planning on preaching the gospel, only that his methodologies would be different. And there's nothing wrong with different methodologies.

Sure there is. They must stand the test of Scripture.

Crash,

Not sure what your point is, but the discussion is the expressing of opinions, which since it is a discussion of a Christian church, the opinions should have scriptural support, in my opinion.

[registerthis]

Sure there is. They must stand the test of Scripture.

That's substance-based, not methodology-based.

This is the difference I am getting at. Whether the gospel is taught in an expansive cathedral with a bell choir and a priest, or in a movie theater with a rock band, the ultimate purpose is the same.

Rychian isn't talking about changing the SUBTANCE of what is taught, but the STYLE.

[traderumor]

That's substance-based, not methodology-based.

This is the difference I am getting at. Whether the gospel is taught in an expansive cathedral with a bell choir and a priest, or in a movie theater with a rock band, the ultimate purpose is the same.

Rychian isn't talking about changing the SUBTANCE of what is taught, but the STYLE.

Read posts after the one you are quoting and substance is discussed. I know what you're saying, but there is more to it than musical preferences and worship style. The issue isn't that simple. What you worship and why is of the utmost importance. I covered that in a later post than the one you are debating.

[registerthis]

Read posts after the one you are quoting and substance is discussed.

Would you mind pointing out what you are referring to?

Not trying to be a PITA about it, but i read all of Rychian's posts, and I don't see where he is advocating changing the substance of the gospels. Please elaborate...

[SunDeck]

Skubala

Good luck with the new venture. I never thought church "sucked", but it certainly didn't seem real relevant. But "Church doesn't have to be irrelevant" doesn't have quite the same ring, does it?

And thanks for the new word to use around my kids. I know, technically this one actually is a curse word, but being in Greek, or Aramaic, or Philipian, or whatever language it's suppose to be makes it okay.
SKUBALA! I'm liking this one more and more.