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Thread: Unapologetic Church Advertising...

  1. #61
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Unapologetic Church Advertising...

    Which no man can do. We are saved by faith alone in Christ alone, with no ability at all to save ourselves as man is dead in his sin. If you don't believe that, Johnny, quite honestly, the Bible says you are not a believer.
    I think we're just arguing semantics, tr.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

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  3. #62
    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: Unapologetic Church Advertising...

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool
    I think we're just arguing semantics, tr.
    It's what most religious arguments boil down to, right?

    And how hundreds of denominations believe they have found the one true set of beliefs and rituals.

  4. #63
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
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    Re: Unapologetic Church Advertising...

    So, some people want that, do what they have to do to be considered a "Christian" by that church (go forward, get baptized, go through new believer's class, etc.), then fall by the wayside at some point down the road because their marriage wasn't fixed, their kids are not perfect, and their life is no better, and possibly even worse, than it was before they got "saved." They walk away disillusioned because God/Jesus did not deliver on promises that were supposedly theirs to claim.
    Y'know, I'm a preacher's kid. And I don't, at all, feel that the majority of folks walk away disillusioned when they walk away.

    I think they walk away because they're bored to tears. Not bored by God or His message. Bored by messengers who fail to understand that they must, before all other things, connect with their audience to facilitate the learning process in order to further inspire the listener's connection to God.

    Bored bored bored bored bored bored. Bored by template sermons. Bored by the droning on of someone standing at the pulpit who is preaching instead of teaching. Bored by the expectation that this part follows this part and that part will precede the next expected action.

    Bored to tears. Boring to no end. B O R I N G.

    THAT'S when it becomes a social gathering, my friend. That's when people start showing up simply because they're expected to be there and the highlight of their Sunday is coffee in the church basement afterwords. I've seen it a thousand times. And yes, the messenger is at fault for that. I've heard so few Ministers who can actually inspire their audience, I can count them on half a hand. Maybe your group is blessed with one who can. Or maybe you're just uniquely receptive of the subject matter regardless of how the Message is communicated. Maybe that's why you might have a different view of things than the majority of people I know. I dunno.

    See, Tom's is a church I'd attend because he appears to understand that the connection MUST come first. And when that connection is made, I think he's going to do a pretty darn good job of getting people to want to hear the message. See, on the surface, Tom is a guy I perceive that I might just want to listen to because he can connect with me. That's what his advertisement tells me. Now, whether that perception is accurate would only be known after actually attending and I'm a little too far out of the way for that. But if that gets folks into Church then thank God for the creativity and willingess to position that they're willing to understand their audience and provide that connection.

    The thing is that traditional service has consistently been built around the auditory learner. This ignores those who are visual and/or kinesthetic learners. You'd be surprised how many people just frankly cannot focus on auditory stimulation for an hour or an hour and a half in order to get anything out of it.

    My perception of Tom's Church is that they're willing to use more progressive methods to facilitate learning. For many, that's enough to get them in. I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with that. What Tom does with them after that is going to determine whether or not they'll stay.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

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  5. #64
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Unapologetic Church Advertising...

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool
    Whether it is called "self-improvement" or "salvation," it all boils down to the saving of oneself -- the preservation of the soul.
    Semantics? You say the gospel is reduced down to saving oneself? No, we are at opposite ends of the spectrum, my friend.

    Salvation is bringing something to life that was dead through the Holy Spirit of God with no ability of any man to do it himself. Self-improvement is losing weight, quitting drinking, stop cussing, being nice to your neighbor, all of which can be done in our own strength. There is no comparison between the two.
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  6. #65
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Unapologetic Church Advertising...

    Honestly, Steel, you are looking for a motivational speaker, not necessarily a preacher. The connection should be through the preaching of the word of God and the message that is being preached, with the connection to the individual speaker secondary. You seem to be saying the speaker is primary. That's fine if you are looking for inspiration through another man rather than inspiration through the word of God. Of course, there is nothing wrong with the messenger having oratory skills, but if that is what determines whether a sermon is exciting or not, then I would submit that the preacher could be preaching heresy and it would not matter, as long as he was a skillful speaker. Those kinds of preachers make a lot of money in this culture, by the way as they manipulate folks to give money to their ministry using religion to do so. Does a speaker need to be dry as dust to be legitimate? Of course not, but he better have Biblical truth in primacy, with oratory skills a distant second.
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  7. #66
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Unapologetic Church Advertising...

    You guys are talking about different denominations within the Christian church, and look at all the varied points of view expressed in this very superficial discussion.

    What about Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, and the other major religions of the world? Are they also facing hellfire and eternal damnation if they don't subscribe to your interpretation of the Bible?
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
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  8. #67
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
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    Re: Unapologetic Church Advertising...

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    Honestly, Steel, you are looking for a motivational speaker, not necessarily a preacher.
    Ah, but no faith I know of dictates that the two must be mutually exclusive.

    I know exactly what I'm looking for, tr.

    The connection should be through the preaching of the word of God and the message that is being preached, with the connection to the individual speaker secondary. You seem to be saying the speaker is primary. That's fine if you are looking for inspiration through another man rather than inspiration through the word of God.
    I'm saying that a speaker who cannot connect with his audience is less effective in spreading the Word than a speaker who can.

    Of course, there is nothing wrong with the messenger having oratory skills, but if that is what determines whether a sermon is exciting or not, then I would submit that the preacher could be preaching heresy and it would not matter, as long as he was a skillful speaker. Those kinds of preachers make a lot of money in this culture, by the way as they manipulate folks to give money to their ministry using religion to do so. Does a speaker need to be dry as dust to be legitimate? Of course not, but he better have Biblical truth in primacy, with oratory skills a distant second.
    And yet, without interest, learning cannot be facilitated.

    Christ is a perfect example of this. Passionately taught folks about new radical concepts. I've heard something about things called "Miracles" too. Pretty dramatic things if I heard right.

    I'll betcha' all of that was pretty interesting.

    I agree that the message comes first. But if you can't deliver it effectively you're shooting yourself in the foot.

    And I think we both know that excellent orators shouldn't be automatically considered to be charlatans. Bad communicators steal stuff too.
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  9. #68
    White Castle to the Nile Crash Davis's Avatar
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    Re: Unapologetic Church Advertising...

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62
    What about Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, and the other major religions of the world? Are they also facing hellfire and eternal damnation if they don't subscribe to your interpretation of the Bible?
    Hell yes!

    Isn't agnoticism a wierd duck? We're all agnostic to the religions we don't believe in. Christians are agnostic to Buddhism. Jews are agnostic to Hinduism. Vice Versa.

    But so few people are agnostic to all organized religions. There's some outstanding infrastructure out there.
    "I fought because I understood and could not bear to understand, that it was my destiny -- unlike that of my father, whose fate it was to hear the roar of the crowd -- to sit in the stands with most men and acclaim others. It was my fate, my destiny, my end, to be a fan."

  10. #69
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Unapologetic Church Advertising...

    Steel,

    All of your objections I carefully qualified. Also, Scripture notes that Moses was a very poor communicator, some conjecture that he may have even stuttered, yet God managed to work through him anyhow as an orator. Who knows, maybe he said "Ph-ph-ph aroah, l-l-l-let m-m-my people go." Some think Paul was a very poor orator, but can we deny the power in his message as we see it in written form? Assuming that he was a poor orator, should Paul have kept silent and not taught his message in the churches he visited? And Jesus also preached much about judgment, which is a taboo subject for so many that want church lite. Finally, we also should not neglect hearing the message simply because we have not found a satisfactory messenger.

    RFS,

    Superficial? Ministry philosophy and the delivering of the gospel superficial? Also, this discussion has nothing to do with denominations and everything to do with the Biblical instructions for establishing a local church. As far as who receives the judgment, there is only one way, and that is through Jesus Christ. I accept that by faith, through grace, both of which were given to me by God's Holy Spirit. There is absolutely no other way.
    Last edited by traderumor; 07-06-2005 at 01:36 PM.
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  11. #70
    Mod Law zombie-a-go-go's Avatar
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    Re: Unapologetic Church Advertising...

    Vishnu says you're all nuts, and are gonna come back as grasshoppers or something for your ignorance.
    "It's easier to give up. I'm not a very vocal player. I lead by example. I take the attitude that I've got to go out and do it. Because of who I am, I've got to give everything I've got to come back."
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  12. #71
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Unapologetic Church Advertising...

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    RFS,

    Superficial? Ministry philosophy and the delivering of the gospel superficial? Also, this discussion has nothing to do with denominations and everything to do with the Bibilcal instructions for establishing a local church.

    Yeah, superficial. Not meant as a slam, in fact I'm surprised that you see it that way. But definitely not in-depth and barely scratching the surface, from my point of view.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
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  13. #72
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: Unapologetic Church Advertising...

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    Steel,

    ..... As far as who receives the judgment, there is only one way, and that is through Jesus Christ. I accept that by faith, through grace, both of which were given to me by God's Holy Spirit. There is absolutely no other way.
    Better known as "my way, or the highway (to hell)"
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun

  14. #73
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Unapologetic Church Advertising...

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62
    Yeah, superficial. Not meant as a slam, in fact I'm surprised that you see it that way. But definitely not in-depth and barely scratching the surface, from my point of view.
    I guess I'm guilty of comparison with other discussions on the board. I consider this to be pretty deep for the non-baseball chatter board. A good discussion, and I can go as deep as folks would like
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  15. #74
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Unapologetic Church Advertising...

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro
    Better known as "my way, or the highway (to hell)"
    That's what the Bible says, which I believe to be the word of God. It's not my way, it's what I accept by faith to be God's only way.

    Just as a side note, I've always thought AC/DC's rock classic would make a great church song
    Can't win with 'em

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  16. #75
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
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    Re: Unapologetic Church Advertising...

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    Steel,

    All of your objections I carefully qualified. Also, Scripture notes that Moses was a very poor communicator, some conjecture that he may have even stuttered, yet God managed to work through him anyhow as an orator. Who knows, maybe he said "Ph-ph-ph aroah, l-l-l-let m-m-my people go." Some think Paul was a very poor orator, but can we deny the power in his message as we see it in written form? Assuming that he was a poor orator, should Paul have kept silent and not taught his message in the churches he visited? And Jesus also preached much about judgment, which is a taboo subject for so many that want church lite. Finally, we also should not neglect hearing the message simply because we have not found a satisfactory messenger.
    Dude. Moses had a cool staff, a super beard, a couple big stone tablets, a great burning bush story, and that whole parting the Red Sea thing going for him. Moses was a happening guy.

    I think you realize that I've never said that folks shouldn't listen to someone who can't speak well. All I've said is that it's easier to learn information presented by a skilled teacher. That's the reality and I think we both realize that no matter how good the information is.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
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