IMO, you dream too small.Originally Posted by princeton
And I don't think he really deserves that much credit for the 2003 Marlins. Dombrowski's good at collecting young talent, but until this season he'd never shown much acumen for blending it with veterans. Larry Beinfest turned over half that team in 2002 and 2003. In fact, I'd say Dombrowski learned a valuable lesson from Beinfest - Note to self: sign Pudge Rodriguez.
I'm not a system player. I am a system.
yup, Dave Dombrowski's three small market titles in 10 years are nothing but mere coincidence.
One, but you seem to want to give him undue post- and pre-title credit.
Could be two in another week or so. I think he's good, but -- since I apparently don't care about baseball as a game -- I'm hardly wowed by the eight losing seasons he's spent in between his two flourishes.
Though I will now make sure to give Murray Cook, John Claiborne and Tal Smith full credit for their heretofore unrecognized World Series victories.
Last edited by M2; 10-16-2006 at 01:52 PM.
I'm not a system player. I am a system.
absolutely, we should always belittle a guy for being an integral part of many great and terribly unlikely successes. After all, it's better to be in a constant state of never understanding where success comes from but thinking that we really do.
It's the Redszone way.
Yeah, that's it. Giving credit to Larry Beinfest for winning with the team that he'd been in control of for two seasons now THAT would be wrong-headed.
BTW, if you've been reading what I've been posting, I'm saying nice things about Dombrowski. I'm just not giving him a cyberservicing. Somehow that's now tantamount to belittling him. IMO, insistences like that, in certain circles, have become the Redszone way.
As an aside here, it's kind of freaky that Dombrowski's wound up in the two most incredibly large small markets in baseball.
Last edited by M2; 10-16-2006 at 02:29 PM.
I'm not a system player. I am a system.
I'm sure that Dombrowski never even gave a thought to adding vets once the foundation was ready. That would have been much too rational.
From where I'm sitting, Beinfest has been trying to copy Dombrowski's 2nd rebuild.
I'm sure he would have. How well he'd have done it is an altogether different matter. Would he have punted Ryan Dempster or moved Nate Robertson to land Mark Redman? Would he have parted with Preston Wilson and Charles Johnson to free up the cash he needed for Pudge and the ability to keep his IF intact? As it turned out, the Josh Beckett window was only a few months wide. Would Dombrowski have dared to make his move that year with A.J. Burnett on the shelf and Brad Penny coming off an injury?
Beinfest's the guy who made the critical and hard decisions.
BTW, Beinfest put together two solid teams in the wake of his WS win and managed to start off 24 games better than Dombrowski on his "copy" job this season. From where I'm sitting Dave's been out-Dombrowskied.
Last edited by M2; 10-16-2006 at 03:05 PM.
I'm not a system player. I am a system.
Hall of Famers like Dombrowski are good bets to succeed. Just ask Chili
Except for the 12 out of 14 years when they've got a team with a losing record.Hall of Famers like Dombrowski are good bets to succeed. Just ask Chili
I'm not a system player. I am a system.
three pennants, 2-3 WS titles is an exceptional tradeoff. that's a record that I'd love to see from the team that I like. I'm not the owner, I don't have to worry about a fan base. I'm just a fan that loves championships, and I'll trade mediocrity for abject failure if it also means championships. What's the difference between second place and last?
Again, you count funny. Two pennants and 1-2 WS titles. And if you want to add that 2003 season then I say you need to stop handing credit for the 1982 Cardinals to Whitey Herzog.
Anyway, if Dombrowski keeps up his current pattern, he'll be winning again 2015. I'm guessing the vast majority of Tigers fans aren't willing to go that long until their next shot at glory.
BTW, if the Mets or Cardinals win the World Series this year, does Dombrowski still get into the HOF and, if so, will he have to wait for Omar Minaya or Walt Jocketty to get there first?
I'm not a system player. I am a system.
if Dombrowski keeps up his current pattern, in 2015 he'll have won his sixth pennant in his fourth small market
but Beane will have a couple of books written about his zero pennants
Florida didn't spend like a small market the year he won it there. It had the 7th highest payroll in MLB that season. Of course Miami isn't a small market. It's a huge market, sixth largest metropolitan area in the U.S.
Detroit's the 10th largest metropolitan area in the U.S. BTW, the folks in Oakland doth protest too much about their market size, the Bay Area ranks 11th overall and San Jose, which isn't far away, ranks 30th (they've also got the potential to leverage the Sacramento media market - 26th overall, roughly the same size as Cincinnati or Kansas City).
The smallest market in the 2006 playoffs, if we're talking about the actual size of the market, was St. Louis.
So now on top of awarding phantom championships, you're now spinning historical and market-size fiction.
Though at least you recognize that Dombrowski's one shot at glory act is the sort of thing that isn't going to keep him in one spot for very long. My guess is he'll try to alter that pattern with the Tigers. Justin Verlander and Andrew Miller might just be able to deliver it for him, those were two great draft picks.
I'm not a system player. I am a system.
Juts a note the A's base extends east and south, so they are leveraging the Milpitis/Stockton corridor, they also extend south on the east side of the Bay, on the west side it's Giants country, with both camps merging south of Moffet Field where the bay ends.(they've also got the potential to leverage the Sacramento media market - 26th overall, roughly the same size as Cincinnati or Kansas City).
The A's do a lot of their marketing in that area, they rarely touch Marin or the Penisula.
The real test will come whe Bonds and Company go to the mattresses and do the rebuild. If the A's continue their success (and yes Princeton it's a success.
That said the A's compared to the Giants are the red headed step child in the Bay Area, and most likely always will be, even if they win.
Now if they get a nice park that doesn't get as cold as the arctic on a July night and looks like Joe Robbie Stadium on a landing pad in the middle of an urban wasteland then they might be able to change that.
I agree that it's a success and that even beyond what he's done for a team, he's done a lot for small market baseball and therefore for baseball in general. I admire Beane. I also admire Beinfest.If the A's continue their success (and yes Princeton it's a success.
but if Det wins this season, then Dombrowski is the most successful builder of WS champs in this era unless the Yankees economic advantages are your thing. And he did it in a couple of places under a couple of different economies. Gillick comes close, but DD is the man. Too bad he's not a Red.
Posting Permissions
|
Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please. |
