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Thread: Federal Court Says Kids Must Believe in God

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    RZ Chamber of Commerce Unassisted's Avatar
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    Federal Court Says Kids Must Believe in God

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,165368,00.html
    Court Upholds Va. Pledge Requirement Thursday, August 11, 2005


    RICHMOND, Va. —
    An appeals court on Wednesday upheld a Virginia law that requires public schools to lead a daily recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance, rejecting a claim that its reference to God was an unconstitutional promotion of religion.

    A suit filed by Edward Myers of Sterling, Va., a father of three, raised the objection to the phrase “one nation under God.”

    A three-judge panel of the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that the pledge is a patriotic exercise, not an affirmation of religion similar to a prayer.

    “Undoubtedly, the pledge contains a religious phrase, and it is demeaning to persons of any faith to assert that the words ‘under God’ contain no religious significance,” Judge Karen Williams wrote. “The inclusion of those two words, however, does not alter the nature of the pledge as a patriotic activity.”

    Myers’ attorney, David Remes, said the 4th Circuit judges failed to examine the pledge’s effect on children.

    “The problem is that young schoolchildren are quite likely to view the pledge as affirming the existence of God and national subordination to God,” Remes said. “The reference to God is one of the few things in the pledge that children understand.”

    Remes said he and his client had not yet discussed whether to appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court.

    A spokeswoman for state Attorney General Judith Williams Jagdmann did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

    Three years ago, a federal appeals court in California sided with another father who had argued that requiring the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools was unconstitutional because of the words “under God.” However, the U.S. Supreme Court dismissed that case last year, saying Michael Newdow lacked standing to sue on behalf of his young daughter because he didn’t have custody of her.

    Newdow, an atheist, has since filed suit against four Sacramento-area school districts on behalf several atheist children and their families.
    /r/reds

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  3. #2
    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: Federal Court Says Kids Must Believe in God

    I don't see "Under God" coming out anytime soon, so long as Courts continue to view it as patriotic language. People tend to forget that "Under God" wasn't added until the 1950s, under Eisenhower, and wasn't part of the original Pledge.

    I guess, ultimately, I don't understand why people think others should be *forced* into acknowledging God. If you choose to, great. I'd recommend it, personally. But if you don't want to...? What is gained by forcing someone to recite something they don't believe in?
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

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    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Federal Court Says Kids Must Believe in God

    The title to this thread is misleading IMO.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Federal Court Says Kids Must Believe in God

    Of course, leaving it out supports the religion of atheism : .

    The pledge of allegiance is about teaching kids the idea of patriotism and was consistent with the context of the nation at that time. Maybe they could have various alternatives when you get to the "under God" part:

    A) monotheistic view: "one nation, under God, indivisible..." [NOTE: Muslims may insert "allah" for God without penalty]

    B) agnostic view: "one nation, under the likelihood that there is an intelligent life force (must speak fast), indivisible..."

    C) atheist view: "one nation, I respectfully refuse to invoke a Sovereign deity (also must speak fast), indivisible..."

    D) pantheistic view: "one nation, all is god, indivisible..."

    E) polytheistic view: "one nation, under gods, indivisible"

    Did we leave anybody out?
    Can't win with 'em

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    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Federal Court Says Kids Must Believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron
    The title to this thread is misleading IMO.
    Amen.

    All of a sudden, kids are damaged by having to use those words. Fickled adults are more worried about it then the kids I bet.

    Go out and asked the average kid what they think of the pledge and see what kind of response you'll get.

    If someone does not want their kid saying those two ugly words (and I bet they are an overwhelming minority), then I'm sure that child can leave them out, and no one will know the wiser, or say anything in protest.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Federal Court Says Kids Must Believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    Of course, leaving it out supports the religion of atheism : .

    The pledge of allegiance is about teaching kids the idea of patriotism and was consistent with the context of the nation at that time. Maybe they could have various alternatives when you get to the "under God" part:

    A) monotheistic view: "one nation, under God, indivisible..." [NOTE: Muslims may insert "allah" for God without penalty]

    B) agnostic view: "one nation, under the likelihood that there is an intelligent life force (must speak fast), indivisible..."

    C) atheist view: "one nation, I respectfully refuse to invoke a Sovereign deity (also must speak fast), indivisible..."

    D) pantheistic view: "one nation, all is god, indivisible..."

    E) polytheistic view: "one nation, under gods, indivisible"

    Did we leave anybody out?
    F) the satanist who will simpy blaspheme God's name while saying "it sure is hot in here".

    And there has to be a clever one for the Star Wars fans, with something along the lines "may the force be with you". :
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Federal Court Says Kids Must Believe in God

    Incidentally, students are not literally forced to recite the pledge. That issue was resolved in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943). A W.Va. school board had adopted a resolution making the pledge mandatory. This was challenged by Jehovah's Witnesses, who maintained that the mandatory salute to the flag violated their freedom of speech and freedom of religion. The U.S. Supreme Court found that their free speech rights had been violated. Since this decision, public school students should not have properly been required to recite the pledge, with or without any reference to God.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Federal Court Says Kids Must Believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron
    Incidentally, students are not literally forced to recite the pledge. That issue was resolved in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943). A W.Va. school board had adopted a resolution making the pledge mandatory. This was challenged by Jehovah's Witnesses, who maintained that the mandatory salute to the flag violated their freedom of speech and freedom of religion. The U.S. Supreme Court found that their free speech rights had been violated. Since this decision, public school students should not have properly been required to recite the pledge, with or without any reference to God.
    And that is the way it should be RB. But that is only in WV right. Its up to each state to address the issue on their own.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Federal Court Says Kids Must Believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    F) the satanist who will simpy blaspheme God's name while saying "it sure is hot in here".

    And there has to be a clever one for the Star Wars fans, with something along the lines "may the force be with you". :
    See, that's the trouble once you start trying to keep everybody happy all the time, someone is always left out
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    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Federal Court Says Kids Must Believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    And that is the way it should be RB. But that is only in WV right. Its up to each state to address the issue on their own.
    No. That was a decision by the U.S. Supreme Court that applies nationwide. Public school students cannot be properly forced to recite the pledge and must be excused from the activity if they so request.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: Federal Court Says Kids Must Believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    Did we leave anybody out?
    Actually, yes. The VISA corporation:

    One nation, under debt...

    Sorry, really, that was bad...
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

  13. #12
    RZ Chamber of Commerce Unassisted's Avatar
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    Re: Federal Court Says Kids Must Believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron
    The title to this thread is misleading IMO.
    I thought it summed up the plaintiff's attorney's view nicely. Granted, it does take a side.

    I doubt the thread would have drawn any replies if I'd used "Verdict on Yet Another "Pledge of Allegiance" Case."
    /r/reds

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    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Federal Court Says Kids Must Believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis
    Actually, yes. The VISA corporation:

    One nation, under debt...

    Sorry, really, that was bad...
    That would be the fatalist view, "eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die." I think it is included quite nicely.
    Can't win with 'em

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    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: Federal Court Says Kids Must Believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor
    That would be the fatalist view, "eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die." I think it is included quite nicely.
    Just make sure your eating and drinking is on your VISA card...along with the new Porsche.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

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    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: Federal Court Says Kids Must Believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis
    I don't see "Under God" coming out anytime soon, so long as Courts continue to view it as patriotic language. People tend to forget that "Under God" wasn't added until the 1950s, under Eisenhower, and wasn't part of the original Pledge.
    Thanks. I learned something today.
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