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Thread: I have issues

  1. #16
    Time is the Revelator. LvJ's Avatar
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    Re: I have issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    Hey. I give you credit: you're putting your money where your mouth is. More than I can say for the sons and daughters of this country's wealthy. They got better things to do I guess.

    If you're interested, Bob Herbert has an interesting OP-ED in the NY Times about re-instituting the draft to put a quicker end to this war.
    Well, I'm not a believer of one supporting a war demands that person to enlist. That's why we do have such a great Military, and why it is indeed voluntary. You know what you are getting into when you sign the dotted line. If one chooses to ignore the risks and wears the green shaded glasses, then - that is his own problem, not the Military's.

    We disagree on the war, so we obviously won't see eye to eye here.

    I don't read Herbert, nor do I have much interest in doing so; however, a draft is completely unnesscary, IMO,.
    Hide your power alleys; Hide your wife

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  3. #17
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    Re: I have issues

    Quote Originally Posted by LvJ
    Well, I'm not a believer of one supporting a war demands that person to enlist. That's why we do have such a great Military, and why it is indeed voluntary. You know what you are getting into when you sign the dotted line. If one chooses to ignore the risks and wears the green shaded glasses, then - that is his own problem, not the Military's.

    We disagree on the war, so we obviously won't see eye to eye here.

    I don't read Herbert, nor do I have much interest in doing so; however, a draft is completely unnesscary, IMO,.
    Yeah. I don't understand why this war hasn't saved me more at the pump, either.

  4. #18
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    Re: I have issues

    Quote Originally Posted by LvJ
    Well, I'm not a believer of one supporting a war demands that person to enlist. That's why we do have such a great Military, and why it is indeed voluntary. You know what you are getting into when you sign the dotted line. If one chooses to ignore the risks and wears the green shaded glasses, then - that is his own problem, not the Military's.

    We disagree on the war, so we obviously won't see eye to eye here.

    I don't read Herbert, nor do I have much interest in doing so; however, a draft is completely unnesscary, IMO,.
    What happens when the U.S. runs out of troops--and no one new enlists?

    I mean, real enemies exist and threaten our country and our allies (Iran and North Korea).

  5. #19
    1st pick 2022 B.B. draft George Foster's Avatar
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    Re: I have issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    Yeah. I don't understand why this war hasn't saved me more at the pump, either.
    The reason it has not saved you money at the pump is that we don't have an oil shortage...we have a refinery shortage. The enviromental wacko's have not allowed a oil refinery to be built in the US since 1980. There are millions of gallons of oil waiting to be processed into gasoline.

    Second, President Bush or the US is not profiting at all form Iraqy oil. Any oil being sold goes back to Iraq and it's people, unlike what the left wing hacks are saying.

    We are more safe with this war in Iraq. terrorist are going to Iraq to fight us rather than fighting us at the Mall of America or Disneyworld. This is not a war with a draft this is a voluntary Army. No one wants to leave home and fight for their Country, but that is what they signed up for and are paid to do. I applaud them for that. Do I agree with everything that has happened in Iraq?..no! But this is war! It is happening in real time. People forget about all of the mistakes that happened on D-Day, but in the end it was successful. We defeated Germany.

    What people need to realize is that people are going to die to terrorism until we defeat it. The decision that the President had to make is do we fight them on the streets of middle America, or do we take the fight to them in the Middle East..either way people are going to die...I think he has made the right decision. Over 2/3's of the people killed in Iraq by our soldiers are not Iraq's but punks from Iran, and Saudi Arabia.

    Don't believe all the negitive stuff on the liberal anti-war news stations. Ask soldiers who are back from the war if we are making a difference. The vast majority of them will say YES! That is why over 80% of the active military voted for Bush. This speaks volumns. If they support Bush and they are in danger because of his decisions.....maybe we should support him to?

    Our society is now a "microwave" society. Most everyone wants instant gratification. This is going to take time and yes lives, just like World War II.
    We have lost aprox. 1,700 soldiers in Iraq since March of 2003. We averaged over 200 lives a day in WWII. The fact is , that generation was a lot tougher than our "air-conditioning" generation ever thought about being. That generation understood that their very exsistance depended upon us defeating Germany and Japan. Our very exsistance depends upon us defeating terrorism. Maybe we need another 9-11 to refocus everybody. God I hope not. There is a price to pay for our freedom that we all take for granted. What price are we willing to pay? I don't want to live in a country like Israel were there are armed gunman outside every Pizza Hut and metal detectors. It's bad enough at the airports already, we don't need that everywhere, but that is the America that we will have if we cave-in to terror.
    Sorry I don't have a spell-check

  6. #20
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: I have issues

    Hacks and wackos... now that's some good discourse.

  7. #21
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    Re: I have issues

    Quote Originally Posted by George Foster
    The reason it has not saved you money at the pump is that we don't have an oil shortage...we have a refinery shortage. The enviromental wacko's have not allowed a oil refinery to be built in the US since 1980. There are millions of gallons of oil waiting to be processed into gasoline.

    Second, President Bush or the US is not profiting at all form Iraqy oil. Any oil being sold goes back to Iraq and it's people, unlike what the left wing hacks are saying.

    We are more safe with this war in Iraq. terrorist are going to Iraq to fight us rather than fighting us at the Mall of America or Disneyworld. This is not a war with a draft this is a voluntary Army. No one wants to leave home and fight for their Country, but that is what they signed up for and are paid to do. I applaud them for that. Do I agree with everything that has happened in Iraq?..no! But this is war! It is happening in real time. People forget about all of the mistakes that happened on D-Day, but in the end it was successful. We defeated Germany.

    What people need to realize is that people are going to die to terrorism until we defeat it. The decision that the President had to make is do we fight them on the streets of middle America, or do we take the fight to them in the Middle East..either way people are going to die...I think he has made the right decision. Over 2/3's of the people killed in Iraq by our soldiers are not Iraq's but punks from Iran, and Saudi Arabia.

    Don't believe all the negitive stuff on the liberal anti-war news stations. Ask soldiers who are back from the war if we are making a difference. The vast majority of them will say YES! That is why over 80% of the active military voted for Bush. This speaks volumns. If they support Bush and they are in danger because of his decisions.....maybe we should support him to?

    Our society is now a "microwave" society. Most everyone wants instant gratification. This is going to take time and yes lives, just like World War II.
    We have lost aprox. 1,700 soldiers in Iraq since March of 2003. We averaged over 200 lives a day in WWII. The fact is , that generation was a lot tougher than our "air-conditioning" generation ever thought about being. That generation understood that their very exsistance depended upon us defeating Germany and Japan. Our very exsistance depends upon us defeating terrorism. Maybe we need another 9-11 to refocus everybody. God I hope not. There is a price to pay for our freedom that we all take for granted. What price are we willing to pay? I don't want to live in a country like Israel were there are armed gunman outside every Pizza Hut and metal detectors. It's bad enough at the airports already, we don't need that everywhere, but that is the America that we will have if we cave-in to terror.
    Sorry I don't have a spell-check
    I don't have spell-check either.

  8. #22
    1st pick 2022 B.B. draft George Foster's Avatar
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    Re: I have issues

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    Hacks and wackos... now that's some good discourse.
    "hacks" do not let the truth get in the way of their hatred toward Bush. They say we are over there for oil even though they know it is not true, but they know it sound's really good.

    And yes "wacko's" is a term used for those who are extream in their beliefs even though they are not based on sound principle. We need oil refinery's, or gas will continue to go up in price due to China's increased demand. If gas goes up in price to much it will cripple our country and our economy. Our elected leaders should "nut -up" and ease these crazy laws that restrict building of new refinery's.

    Sorry no spell check

  9. #23
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: I have issues

    We need oil refinery's,
    And more Applebees too.


    ===============================
    United States Refineries
    ===============================

    Alabama

    * Tuscaloosa Refinery (Hunt Refining), Tuscaloosa, Alabama
    * Saraland Refinery (Shell), Saraland, Alabama
    * Mobile Refinery (Trigeant), Mobile, Alabama

    Alaska

    * Kenai Refinery (Tesoro), Kenai, Alaska
    * Kuparuk Refinery (ConocoPhillips), Kuparuk, Alaska
    * North Pole Refinery (Flint Hills Resources), North Pole, Alaska
    * North Pole Refinery (Petro Star), North Pole, Alaska
    * Prudhoe Bay Refinery (BP), Prudhoe Bay, Alaska
    * Valdez Refinery (Petro Star), Valdez, Alaska


    Arkansas

    * El Dorado Refinery (Lion Oil), El Dorado, Arkansas
    * Smackover Refinery (Cross Oil), Smackover, Arkansas


    California

    * Bakersfield Refinery (Big West), Bakersfield, California, 66,000 barrels per day
    * Bakersfield Refinery (Kern Oil), Bakersfield, California, 25,000 bpd
    * Bakersfield Refinery (San Joaquin Refining Company), Bakersfield, California, 24,300 bpd
    * Benicia Refinery (Valero), Benicia, California, 144,000 bpd
    * Carson Refinery (BP), Carson, California, 260,000 bpd
    * El Segundo Refinery (Chevron), El Segundo, California, 260,000 bpd
    * Golden Eagle Refinery (Tesoro), near Martinez, California, 166,000 bpd
    * Long Beach Refinery (Edgington Oil Company), Long Beach, California, 26,000 bpd
    * Martinez Refinery (Shell Oil), Martinez, California, 154,900 bpd
    * Oxnard Refinery (Tenby Inc), Oxnard, California, 2,800 bpd
    * Paramount Refinery (Paramount Petroleum), Paramount, California, 50,000 bpd
    * Richmond Refinery (Chevron), Richmond, California, 242,901 bpd
    * Rodeo San Francisco Refinery (ConocoPhillips), Rodeo, California, 73,200 bpd
    * Santa Maria Refinery (ConocoPhillips), Santa Maria, California, 41,800 bpd
    * Santa Maria Refinery (Greka Energy), Santa Maria, California, 9,500 bpd
    * South Gate Refinery (Lunday Thagard), South Gate, California, 8,500 bpd
    * Torrance Refinery (ExxonMobil), Torrance, California, 149,000 bpd
    * Wilmington Asphalt Refinery (Valero), Wilmington, California, 5,900 bpd
    * Wilmington Refinery (ConocoPhillips), Wilmington, California, 133,100 bpd
    * Wilmington Refinery (Shell Oil), Wilmington, California, 98,500 bpd
    * Wilmington Refinery (Valero), Wilmington, California, 149,000 bpd

    Colorado

    * Commerce City Refinery (Suncor), Commerce City, Colorado

    Delaware

    * Delaware City Refinery (Premcor), Delaware City, Delaware

    Georgia

    * Savannah Refinery (Citgo), Savannah, Georgia (Asphalt Refinery)
    * Douglasville Refinery (Young Refining), Douglasville, Georgia
    Hawaii

    * Kapolei Refinery (Tesoro), Ewa Beach, Hawaii
    * Hawaii Refinery (Chevron), Honolulu, Hawaii

    Illinois

    * Lemont Refinery (Citgo), Lemont, Illinois
    * Joliet Refinery (ExxonMobil), Joliet, Illinois
    * Hartford Refinery (ConocoPhillips), Hartford, Illinois (Currently being integrated with Wood River)
    * Robinson Refinery (Marathon Ashland Petroleum), Robinson, Illinois
    * Wood River Refinery (ConocoPhillips), Roxana, Illinois

    Indiana

    * Whiting Refinery (BP), Whiting, Indiana
    * Mount Vernon Refinery (Countrymark Co-op), Mount Vernon, Indiana

    Kansas

    * Coffeyville Refinery (Farmland Industries), Coffeyville, Kansas
    * El Dorado Refinery (Frontier Oil), El Dorado, Kansas
    * McPherson Refinery (NCRA), McPherson, Kansas

    Kentucky

    * Catlettsburg Refinery (Marathon Ashland Petroleum), Catlettsburg, Kentucky
    * Somerset Refinery, Somerset, Kentucky

    Louisiana

    * Baton Rouge Refinery (ExxonMobil), Baton Rouge, Louisiana
    * Belle Chasse Refinery (ConocoPhillips), Belle Chasse, Louisiana
    * Chalmette Refinery (ExxonMobil), Chalmette, Louisiana
    * Convent Refinery (Motiva Enterprises), Convent, Louisiana
    * Cotton Valley Refinery (Calumet Lubricants), Cotton Valley, Louisiana
    * Garyville Refinery (Marathon Ashland Petroleum), near Garyville, Louisiana
    * Krotz Springs Refinery (Valero), Krotz Springs, Louisiana
    * Lake Charles Refinery (Citgo), Lake Charles, Louisiana
    * Lake Charles Refinery (Calcasieu Refining), Lake Charles, Louisiana
    * Meraux Refinery (Murphy Oil), Meraux, Louisiana
    * Norco Refinery (Motiva Enterprises), Norco, Louisiana
    * Port Allen Refinery (Placid Refining), Port Allen, Louisiana
    * Princeton Refinery (Calumet Lubricants), Princeton, Louisiana
    * Shreveport Refinery (Calumet Lubricants), Shreveport, Louisiana
    * St. Charles Refinery (Valero), Norco, Louisiana
    * Westlake Refinery (ConocoPhillips), Westlake, Louisiana

    Michigan

    * Detroit Refinery (Marathon Ashland Petroleum), Detroit, Michigan

    Minnesota

    * Pine Bend Refinery (Flint Hills Resources), Rosemount, Minnesota
    * St. Paul Park Refinery (Marathon Ashland Petroleum), St. Paul Park, Minnesota


    Mississippi

    * Lumberton Refinery (Hunt Southland Refining), Lumberton, Mississippi
    * Pascagoula Refinery (Chevron), Pascagoula, Mississippi
    * Vicksburg Refinery (Ergon), Vicksburg, Mississippi
    * Rogerslacy Refinery (Hunt Southland Refining), Sandersville, Mississippi

    Montana

    * Billings Refinery (ConocoPhillips), Billings, Montana
    * Billings Refinery (ExxonMobil), Billings, Montana
    * Great Falls Refinery (Holly Corporation via Montana Refining), Great Falls, Montana
    * Laurel Refinery (Cenex), Laurel, Montana

    Nevada

    * Eagle Springs Refinery (Foreland Refining), Eagle Springs, Nevada

    New Jersey

    * Bayway Refinery (ConocoPhillips), Linden, New Jersey
    * Eagle Point Refinery (Sunoco), Westville, New Jersey
    * Paulsboro Refinery (Valero), Paulsboro, New Jersey
    * Perth Amboy Refinery (Chevron), Perth Amboy, New Jersey

    New Mexico

    * Artesia Refinery (Holly Corporation via Navajo Refining), Artesia, New Mexico
    * Bloomfield Refinery (Giant Industries), Bloomfield, New Mexico
    * Gallup Refinery (Giant Industries), Gallup, New Mexico
    * Lovington Refinery (Holly Corporation), Lovington, New Mexico

    North Dakota

    * Mandan Refinery (Tesoro), Mandan, North Dakota

    Ohio

    * Canton Refinery (Marathon Ashland Petroleum), Canton, Ohio
    * Lima Refinery (Premcor), Lima, Ohio
    * Toledo Refinery (BP), Toledo, Ohio
    * Toledo Refinery (Sunoco), Toledo, Ohio

    Oklahoma

    * Ardmore Refinery (Valero), Ardmore, Oklahoma
    * Ponca City Refinery (ConocoPhillips), Ponca City, Oklahoma
    * Tulsa Refinery (Sinclair Oil), Tulsa, Oklahoma
    * Tulsa Refinery (Sunoco), Tulsa, Oklahoma
    * Wynnewood Refinery, Wynnewood, Oklahoma

    Pennsylvania

    * Bradford Refinery (American Refining Group), Bradford, Pennsylvania
    * Marcus Hook Refinery (Sunoco), Marcus Hook, Pennsylvania
    * Philadelphia Refinery (Sunoco), Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
    * Trainer Refinery (ConocoPhillips), Trainer, Pennsylvania
    * United Refining Company, Warren, Pennsylvania
    * Wamsutta Oil Refinery (historical), McClintocksville, Pennsylvania

    Tennessee

    * Memphis Refinery (Premcor), Memphis, Tennessee

    Texas

    * Baytown Refinery (ExxonMobil), Baytown, Texas
    * Big Spring Refinery (Alon USA), Big Spring, Texas
    * Beaumont Refinery (ExxonMobil), Beaumont, Texas
    * Borger Refinery (ConocoPhillips), Borger, Texas
    * Corpus Christi Complex (Flint Hills Resources), Corpus Christi, Texas
    * Corpus Christi Refinery (Citgo), Corpus Christi, Texas
    * Corpus Christi Refinery (Valero), Corpus Christi, Texas
    * Deer Park Refinery (Shell Oil), Deer Park, Texas
    * El Paso Refinery (Sunoco), El Paso, Texas
    * Houston Refinery (Citgo), Houston, Texas
    * Houston Refinery (Valero), Houston, Texas
    * McKee Refinery (Valero), Sunray, Texas
    * Pasadena Refinery (Crown Central Petroleum), Pasadena, Texas
    * Port Arthur Refinery (Atofina Petrochemicals), Port Arthur, Texas
    * Port Arthur Refinery (Motiva Enterprises), Port Arthur, Texas
    * Port Arthur Refinery (Premcor), Port Arthur, Texas
    * San Antonio Refinery (Age Refining), San Antonio, Texas
    * Sweeny Refinery (ConocoPhillips), Sweeny, Texas
    * Texas City Refinery (BP), Texas City, Texas
    * Texas City Refinery (Marathon Ashland Petroleum), Texas City, Texas
    * Texas City Refinery (Valero), Texas City, Texas
    * Three Rivers Refinery (Valero), Three Rivers, Texas
    * Tyler Refinery (Crown Central Petroleum), Tyler, Texas

    Utah

    * North Salt Lake Refinery (Big West Oil), North Salt Lake, Utah
    * Salt Lake City Refinery (Chevron), Salt Lake City, Utah
    * Salt Lake City Refinery (Tesoro), Salt Lake City, Utah
    * Woods Cross Refinery (Holly Corporation), Woods Cross, Utah
    * Woods Cross Refinery (Silver Eagle Refining), Woods Cross, Utah

    Virginia

    * Yorktown Refinery (Giant Industries), Yorktown, Virginia

    Washington

    * Anacortes Refinery (Tesoro), Anacortes, Washington
    * Ferndale Refinery (BP), Ferndale, Washington
    * Ferndale Refinery (ConocoPhillips), Ferndale, Washington
    * Tacoma Refinery (U.S. Oil and Refining), Tacoma, Washington

    West Virginia

    * Newell Refinery (Ergon), Newell, West Virginia

    Wisconsin

    * Superior Refinery (Murphy Oil), Superior, Wisconsin

    Wyoming

    * Cheyenne Refinery (Frontier Oil), Cheyenne, Wyoming
    * Evanston Refinery (Silver Eagle Refining), Evanston, Wyoming
    * Evansville Refinery (Little America Refining), Evansville, Wyoming
    * Newcastle Refinery (Wyoming Refining), Newcastle, Wyoming
    * Sinclair Refinery (Sinclair Oil), Sinclair, Wyoming

  10. #24
    1st pick 2022 B.B. draft George Foster's Avatar
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    Re: I have issues

    Still we have not built a new refinery since 1980. These are all old and break down continually. It is talked about daily on CNBC. I am impressed with your research I'll give you rep points. Our oil consumption has gone up just a little since 1980, good or bad. Most homes in 1980 still owned just one car. Now there are 2 or 3 cars in everyone's driveway

  11. #25
    post hype sleeper cincinnati chili's Avatar
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    Re: I have issues

    Quote Originally Posted by George Foster
    Still we have not built a new refinery since 1980. These are all old and break down continually. It is talked about daily on CNBC. I am impressed with your research I'll give you rep points. Our oil consumption has gone up just a little since 1980, good or bad. Most homes in 1980 still owned just one car. Now there are 2 or 3 cars in everyone's driveway
    I will give you rep points for being a good sport and giving rep points to WOY, even though you disagree with him ( - funny how this works).

    Respectfully though, I'm not an expert on the Alaska Wilderness and other targeted drilling spots. But perhaps the answer isn't to build more refineries, but to go back to 1-2 cars per driveway instead of 3... or perhaps not drive low-gas-mpg vehicles unless you need to tow a boat, use a truck for your job, etc.
    ". . . acquiring J. Blanton from Oakland for, apparently, Bailey/Cueto, Votto and a lesser prospect. I do it in a second . . . The Reds' equation this year is simple: Make Matt Belisle your #3 starter . . . trade for Blanton, win 85 or more, be in the mix all summer." - Paul Daugherty, Feb. 8, 2008

  12. #26
    CELEBRATION TIME RBA's Avatar
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    Re: I have issues

    Quote Originally Posted by George Foster
    The reason it has not saved you money at the pump is that we don't have an oil shortage...we have a refinery shortage. The enviromental wacko's have not allowed a oil refinery to be built in the US since 1980. There are millions of gallons of oil waiting to be processed into gasoline.
    How does that explain the small refineries being closed down? Answer: The big oil companies pushed them out.

    Second, President Bush or the US is not profiting at all form Iraqy oil. Any oil being sold goes back to Iraq and it's people, unlike what the left wing hacks are saying.
    The problem is that the oil pipelines keep getting blown up. And wasn't the oil suppose to fund this war with the American people paying very little?


    We are more safe with this war in Iraq. terrorist are going to Iraq to fight us rather than fighting us at the Mall of America or Disneyworld.
    So the tubes in London are also "overthere"?

    This is not a war with a draft this is a voluntary Army. No one wants to leave home and fight for their Country, but that is what they signed up for and are paid to do.
    How exactly is it "fight for their country" when Iraq posed no threat to the US? When are you going, you do belive in it, don't you? Are would you rather have other people's children do the fighting for you?

    I applaud them for that. Do I agree with everything that has happened in Iraq?..no! But this is war! It is happening in real time. People forget about all of the mistakes that happened on D-Day, but in the end it was successful. We defeated Germany.
    Yes, we defeated Germany because Germany and Japan posed a threat to the "free world" at the time. What threat did Iraq pose to the US and it's allies?


    What people need to realize is that people are going to die to terrorism until we defeat it. The decision that the President had to make is do we fight them on the streets of middle America, or do we take the fight to them in the Middle East..either way people are going to die...I think he has made the right decision. Over 2/3's of the people killed in Iraq by our soldiers are not Iraq's but punks from Iran, and Saudi Arabia.
    And you get this 2/3's number from where? Where's the other 1/3 come from?

    Don't believe all the negitive stuff on the liberal anti-war news stations
    What liberal anti-war news stations? What satellite company or cable company are these stations on. I can't seem to find it on Directv. I'll be most interested in a channel like that.


    .
    Ask soldiers who are back from the war if we are making a difference. The vast majority of them will say YES! That is why over 80% of the active military voted for Bush.
    Again, where do you come up with your facts and figures? 80 percent? That's impressive, if it were true.

    This speaks volumns. If they support Bush and they are in danger because of his decisions.....maybe we should support him to?
    huh?

    Our society is now a "microwave" society. Most everyone wants instant gratification. This is going to take time and yes lives, just like World War II.
    We have lost aprox. 1,700 soldiers in Iraq since March of 2003. We averaged over 200 lives a day in WWII. The fact is , that generation was a lot tougher than our "air-conditioning" generation ever thought about being. That generation understood that their very exsistance depended upon us defeating Germany and Japan.
    Yes, as I said before Japan and Germany were both threats to the United States and its allies.

    Our very exsistance depends upon us defeating terrorism. Maybe we need another 9-11 to refocus everybody.
    You seem to be confusing 9/11 with the Iraq War. Maybe if you watch one of those "liberal" tv stations you might learn none of the hi-jackers were from Iraq and most of them were Saudis.

    God I hope not. There is a price to pay for our freedom that we all take for granted. What price are we willing to pay?
    How about your daughter, your son, your wife? Have you and them joined the war effort?

    I don't want to live in a country like Israel were there are armed gunman outside every Pizza Hut and metal detectors. It's bad enough at the airports already, we don't need that everywhere, but that is the America that we will have if we cave-in to terror.
    Sorry I don't have a spell-check

  13. #27
    1st pick 2022 B.B. draft George Foster's Avatar
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    Re: I have issues

    How can I give rep points when WOY does not have the icon to give reps points too?

  14. #28
    CELEBRATION TIME RBA's Avatar
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    Re: I have issues

    Quote Originally Posted by George Foster
    How can I give rep points when WOY does not have the icon to give reps points too?
    You have to be a member of the "Old Red Guard" to give rep points. You might make it someday.

  15. #29
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    Re: I have issues

    Iraq really represents proof of the absolute bankruptcy of the right
    wing. They controlled the presidency, the congress and the courts. As a
    result of 9/11, they controlled public opinion
    and had carte blache to take any action they desired. So what did they
    do? Against all common sense, they invaded Iraq. They can't blame the
    Democrats, they can't blame the press, they can't blame the gays,
    people of color, or the atheists. They had all the power and they
    really screwed it up. And as each day passes, the extent of that screwup
    becomes clearer.

  16. #30
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: I have issues

    Quote Originally Posted by George Foster
    The reason it has not saved you money at the pump is that we don't have an oil shortage...we have a refinery shortage. The enviromental wacko's have not allowed a oil refinery to be built in the US since 1980. There are millions of gallons of oil waiting to be processed into gasoline.
    We don't have an oil shortage or a refinery shortage; we have expensive oil due to high worldwide demand from not only the United States, but the developing nations like China and India, which are starting to become largescale consumers of oil as their economies move towards the first world.

    Second, President Bush or the US is not profiting at all form Iraqy oil. Any oil being sold goes back to Iraq and it's people, unlike what the left wing hacks are saying.
    The issue isn't "profit" on oil, the issue is production. Iraq sits on top of the 3rd largest proven oil reserve in the world (behind only Saudi Arabia and Canada) at an estimated 115 billion barrels, with some estimates being as high as 250 billion barrels. However, the country isn't coming anywhere close to meeting it's potential sustained production ability, due to insurgent attacks and sabotage on the oil infastructure. These attacks (caused by the inability of the United States to control the area) have cost Iraq billions of dollars (and millions of barrels) in lost production. Every barrel of oil that the insurgents prevent being exported from Iraq lowers world supply all the more and keeps prices high.

    Further, the current political climate of the middle east (including Iraq) is keeping the price of oil artificially high due to the constant threat that exists in the area. A stable middle east would bring about lower prices due to the decreased risk of a massive production stoppage that would result from any largescale destabilization of production and export of oil that would be the result of a terrorist attack or US invasion of another part of the area.

    So, yeah... the U.S. isn't directly profiteering on the backs of the Iraqi people...but we're not helping ourselves out at the pump by destabilizing the region that has direct control over the lives of every American through their oil production.

    We are more safe with this war in Iraq. terrorist are going to Iraq to fight us rather than fighting us at the Mall of America or Disneyworld.
    The fallacy of logic here is that the number of terrorists in the world remains constant. Terrorists (unlike oil) are not a finite resource; more terrorists can spring up when things call them to action...like, say, invading a country in their home areas. How many more terrorists have we created by throwing our weight around in Iraq like we have some god-given right to march across the Earth and spread our way of life?

    You'll find that you create a lot more enemies when you give them even more reason to hate you.

    This is not a war with a draft this is a voluntary Army. No one wants to leave home and fight for their Country, but that is what they signed up for and are paid to do. I applaud them for that.
    They don't want your applause, they want your support.

    And I don't mean your support as in the $1 yellow flag sticker on the back of people's cars, or lots of empty and hollow "Thank Yous" that get thrown around at servicemen and women. I mean real, financial and logistical support.

    If you really support this war, and you really care about what happens to our troops...then you're right, it's a voluntary army and you are under no obligation to go fight. But, surely you wouldn't be opposed to a tax hike so that we can outfit our army with the top-of-the-line and state-of-the-art tools (like body armor, armored humvees, better weapons and equipment, etc.) to enable them to protect their lives and complete their mission successfully...right? Surely you wouldn't mind going without a few of the luxuries you currently enjoy so that we can offer better pay to our soldiers to entice more young men and women to put on the uniform and reinforce our ranks overseas?

    Not only would you not mind...you would demand it, wouldn't you?

    ...why is it I heare tons of people yelling for everyone to support our troops and support this war, but I see the same people yelling for tax cuts, social security privitization, and lots of other things that personally benefit them but do nothing to save the lives of our men and women overseas?

    Do I agree with everything that has happened in Iraq?..no! But this is war! It is happening in real time. People forget about all of the mistakes that happened on D-Day, but in the end it was successful. We defeated Germany.
    We were successful in World War II because we turned the might of the United States towards an enemy...people of all ages and races were called to serve their country and did so honorably. Those who weren't fighting were working in factories turning out the machines of war needed to fight this conflict. Those who weren't working were "going without" to make sure that everyone who was fighting could do so in the best possible conditions that could be managed.

    I think we'd have more success in Iraq if everyone behaved the same way now.

    What people need to realize is that people are going to die to terrorism until we defeat it.
    Terrorism is an idea. The idea is to utilize methods of warfare and conflict that strike directly at the heart of one's enemy at a time and place of your choosing with the goal of inflicting fear and panic.

    You cannot defeat "Terrorism" any more than you can declare a war on "Guerillia Warfare" and defeat that. There will always be terrorism, it is just a question of what levels we are prepared to tolerate.

    Incidentally, what does this have to do with Iraq? The notion of Iraq-sponsered terrorism has been almost thoroughly debunked.

    The decision that the President had to make is do we fight them on the streets of middle America, or do we take the fight to them in the Middle East..either way people are going to die...I think he has made the right decision. Over 2/3's of the people killed in Iraq by our soldiers are not Iraq's but punks from Iran, and Saudi Arabia.
    The fallacy is in assuming that the only way to stop terrorism is to kill terrorists when you find them. That's kind of like saying the best way to stop a roach infestation is to kill roaches when you see them.

    Don't believe all the negitive stuff on the liberal anti-war news stations. Ask soldiers who are back from the war if we are making a difference. The vast majority of them will say YES! That is why over 80% of the active military voted for Bush. This speaks volumns. If they support Bush and they are in danger because of his decisions.....maybe we should support him to?
    Or it could mean that the vast majority of the people who enter the army are predisposed to have a conservative value-set and hold conservative beliefs, thus making them more likely to support a conservative president...

    It could also mean that a lot of them have risked their lives in Iraq, seen close friends killed or injured, and desperately want to believe they were not doing this for nothing...in order to put a helmet on, pick a gun up, and head into 100+ weather while fending your life, you'd better be saying something to yourself other than "I'm not even supposed to be here today."

    Or yes, it could mean that they support the war and support the war effort...who knows, I cannot say.

    What I can say is that saying people should support the President merely because a lot of other people think he's doing a good job isn't a convincing argument, from where I sit. I think the President is doing a horrid job and has likely done irreperable harm to our reputation as a nation on the international stage, and our economy here on the home front.

    Our society is now a "microwave" society. Most everyone wants instant gratification. This is going to take time and yes lives, just like World War II.
    Instant Gratification that the President so wonderfully provided when he declared "Mission Accomplished" some 1,000 deaths ago.

    We have lost aprox. 1,700 soldiers in Iraq since March of 2003. We averaged over 200 lives a day in WWII. The fact is , that generation was a lot tougher than our "air-conditioning" generation ever thought about being. That generation understood that their very exsistance depended upon us defeating Germany and Japan. Our very exsistance depends upon us defeating terrorism.
    That generation was a lot more willing to shoulder the burden of responsibility for a cause they believed so heavily in. And, as I stated above, it was done in ways beyond just putting on a uniform.

    Maybe we need another 9-11 to refocus everybody. God I hope not. There is a price to pay for our freedom that we all take for granted. What price are we willing to pay? I don't want to live in a country like Israel were there are armed gunman outside every Pizza Hut and metal detectors. It's bad enough at the airports already, we don't need that everywhere, but that is the America that we will have if we cave-in to terror.
    I'm struggling to understand how this has anything to do with Iraq. Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11. Iraq has never once attacked our nation. There were no Iraqis (to the best of my knowledge) involved in any major American terrorist attacks. In fact, there wasn't much terrorism going in Iraq at all when Saddam was in control.

    We destablized the region and created more terrorism when we marched in and took the palce over. We gave wings to the argument that America is a country only interested in controlling the Muslim world. The argument is bunk, we all know that...but to the would-be-terrorists of the world, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.

    If you really want to get technical, this country caved to terror when it refused to hold Saudi Arabia even remotely responsible for the actions of it's citizens on 9-11 and for not being more helpful in tracking down Osama Bin Laden (hey Bush, remember him?) and his cohorts. It's amazing that we can be so adamant about spreading democracy in the Middle East, yet do business with a nation as backwards as them...

    (Note, this post is not intended as a personal attack on anyone...just me venting my feelings on the war)
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